HOW TO SLOW DOWN
WITH DR. MEGAN WARNER
POP 196

[This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok and Alison Pidgeon – Session Number 196.]

INTRODUCTION

[JOE]
So, I totally screwed up. Alison and I batched together all of that kind of front-end and back-end parts of this podcast. And, somehow, we missed the introduction for Dr. Megan Warner. But, Megan’s interview is so awesome about slowing down and some times that she took. It’s just nice to see people growing their businesses, hustling, sprinting, getting it going, and then realizing that their big ideas, the big way that they’re going to change the world beyond just doing individual counseling. Those big ideas come more often than not when they slow down when they start to think about all of these different areas in their life that they’re being inspired and pulling from those into this one big idea. I think about the Slow Down School and how I’ve been reading a lot about the different religions and religious things. I was watching this thing on Netflix of 10 Questions for the Dalai Lama. And then also, I was reading this book about some of these Jewish origins of the Gospels. It’s interesting how every major religion has some way that they slow down, that they reflect, that they step back from the ordinary in there every day to kind of discover the ordinary. You can be inspired in so many different places that are outside of counseling. But, if you don’t slow down, it’s hard for your brain to weave all of that together. So, today, without further ado, I give you Dr. Megan Warner.
Today on the show, we have Dr. Megan Warner. She is this awesome psychologist that has Gilford’s psychological services that she’s developing. She and I have done consulting for a while. Megan has training and experience as the assistant clinical professor at the Department of Psychiatry at Yale University School of Medicine. Her Ph.D. is in clinical psychology from Texas, A&M. Her Pre-Doc residency was at Yale University School of Medicine and her Post-Doc fellowship is in PTSD at Brown University Medical School. But, even more importantly, she is mastering the art of slowing down. Megan, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[MEGAN]
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
[JOE]
Yeah. I’m so excited to have you here too. You know, your practice was growing, and a lot was happening. You sent me an email a couple of months ago about slowing down. And, for me, that email just captured everything that I want to cover in this 10-part series. Take us back to kind of how things were going over the summer for you, and then, when you slow down some of the things that happened.

SLOWING THINGS DOWN

[MEGAN]
I have been growing a practice. We started working together in the Spring and everything was going great. It was like a very hard for us. By the fall, I was feeling I could separate the excitement of the momentum from like the anxiety of the momentum. You know, when you’re like in a rush or when you are kind of hard-pressed, it’s so awesome. It’s kind of like having a couple cups of coffee and using your energy. It’s amazing but it’s starting to feel I wasn’t as in control of that feeling. The momentum got a hold on me instead of me having a hold on the momentum. I kept wishing I could take a vacation. I wish I could figure out a way to plan it. And so, serendipitously, my husband took my kids out of town for a couple of days to go with their family. I was like, “You know what, I’m going to rock these 3 days that I have.” I need to take a break. And, I scheduled a salt float. Have you heard about it?
[JOE]
I did. You know, I have actually heard about that. A couple of other people referenced it. And then, I watched the TV show Stranger Things. They did this sensory deprivation on that show. And then, you sent the email and I’m like “I have to do it.” And so, Christina and I actually did it when we’re out at Seattle at John Gottman’s marriage conference or partner conference. So, it was because of your email that I’m like, “Okay if Megan did it, I got this experience. I’m going to try this thing.” So, maybe, take people through what it is if they haven’t heard of the float.
[MEGAN]
Yeah. So, it’s an amazing thing. You’re going to like a sensory deprivation room or tank. It depends on the facility. There’s been one on Gilford that I’ve driven by a million times. I always wondered. I looked it up. And yes, you go into this room. There’s usually a shower. You take a shower. You rinse off. And then, you go into this tank or this room. It’s very low lighting like a blue light which you can turn off or just turn the light off. It’s very intensely salted water. I think they’ve probably put a ridiculous amount of Epsom salt into the water. It’s so much salt that you’d float. I think they’re probably trying to simulate like a utero-type environment because you just lay there and float. You can’t do anything but float. And, it’s warm and it’s cozy. And then, you can turn the light off so there’s nothing. It’s completely like deprivation. It’s very relaxing. Did you find it relaxing?
[JOE]
Yeah. So, the first we did too. The first time I went, I was just so fascinated by the experience that I sort of like experimenting with things. So, I was like floating there. I was like, “Woah, I wonder how close my hand can get to my face before I really see it.” And then, I dripped salt water into my eyes so then, I was like, “Oh crap. Where’s the squirt bottle?” because they give you a squirt bottle for people like me. And so then, I’m like, Well, I wonder how long it would take for me to float from one side to the other if I just push with one finger. The first time like I was total monkey brain. I obviously didn’t have this great meditative experience but the second time for me, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to be fully present and just let myself be.” It was amazing. It shocked me how I could be there for an hour in pitch darkness and just like float around.
[MEGAN]
Right. The time flies so fast.
[JOE]
What was your experience when you did it the first time?
[MEGAN]
You know it’s funny I love your story. It made me feel a lot better because I did the exact same thing. I was like pushing myself back and forth, you know, but very gently like I would sort of press off with my toes and see if I could go to the other side. But, I actually felt that very mindful. I felt so relaxed just kind of playing in a space. I feel like I was kind of in an ocean. I was enjoying ping-ponging myself. I was kind of playing, you know what I mean like it was a playful space and it’s also hard, you know because you have these thoughts. I practice mindfulness and it made me very aware of the intrusiveness of the thoughts I was having that I didn’t want to have like thinking about the practice, thinking about the to-do list, and so, I was really making conscious effort like you’re describing to sort of like see the thoughts, absorb the thoughts and let them go and get back to the warmth of the water, and the pleasure of the float. So, I did it a second time recently. And, I kind of play around, you know, kicking myself around side to side, I play with the little spray bottle and thrust with the pillow. But, eventually, I settle in and before I know it, it’s over. Both times, I’ve fallen asleep to like 4 or 5 minutes. What am I doing? I’m sleeping on water.
[JOE]
The one that I had, they had the option of having some music on. First, I was like, “Oh, I want to be completely silent.” But then, I actually ended up going with it. The first one was this like Mongolian chanting. It was cool because we’re just at this one spot in the tub. You can hear it but everywhere else you couldn’t. Your kind of just like floating and then all of a sudden, you’re hearing like this. And then, you are kind of like, move out of it. It messed with your mind because it was just like the sound crapped up and then left. It’s like this wave of sound.
[MEGAN]
Yeah, that’s so great. It’s so mindful. It’s so relaxing to notice that and know what you’re noticing instead of like a to-do list or you know, a grocery list, or whatever. You’re only with the music or you’re only with the dark. Even only with the spray bottle, you know, it’s important. I think.
[JOE]
Even that wordplay that you use, I think, you know, having little kids, I have a 3-year old and a 5-year-old. They play all the time. When you think about as adults, like, when do we have that chance to play to just really be free of the business of the obligations? I think I’m amazed as an adult just how much freedom can work it is to be an adult and a parent. It’s like, how do you incorporate play? It sounds like on your float, you had some kind of playfulness. Is that habit of yours or is that something that you just kind of observe at that moment?

INCORPORATING PLAY

[MEGAN]
Yeah, yeah. Both I think. I mean it’s definitely something I’ve observed. I had a lot of like centering moments in that float, like moments of clarity. Like wait, how would I want actually to live my life. And part of it is sort of participating more fully in the playfulness of a 4-year-old or a 7-year-old. One of the things I really love about mindfulness is when I play with them, I really play with them. You know, I put everything aside if we’re playing with clay, or we made pizza recently, or whatever. It’s just being fully one with them at the moment. It’s restorative. It’s key. It’s major.
[JOE]
Now, when you say restorative like how does that feel? What is it? People use different analogies. What does it feel like it does to your insides when you fully step away from your business?
[MEGAN]
It feels like I’m giving my mind a bit of a break. You know, there’s sort of mindfulness to strength and focus but I think there’s also the ability to be where you are that lets you be free of focus. So, it’s kind of be more like that playful space. I want to be strengthening my brain right now. I actually want to give it a reprieve. I want to give it a rest from thinking. And then, it translates into my body. If I have a rested brain, I feel a little less keyed up. Again, that sort of issue like momentum and anxiety overlapping for me. I don’t want that. I want the momentum and the press. But, I don’t want to feel stressed by it. I want to feel the rush of it but not the agitation of it if that makes any sense.
[JOE]
So then, after your float, your husband’s gone for 3 days, what else did you do to just kind of bounce back and just rest in that time? Any other kind of practices you did during that time?

BOUNCING BACK

[MEGAN]
Yeah, it was so interesting. You know, I went into this series of like the set of days. Okay, now, I’m going on vacation, and I want to do it properly. I’m not going to think about anything but a vacation. You know, I scheduled a message. I went to the Farmer’s Market and I puttered around.
It was wonderful. I sort of cleaned the house and organized. But, gradually, what sort of happened was I got distracted by all these thoughts that I wanted to be working. I was having this internal conflict that I know you’re not supposed to be working. But, I want to do work because I feel so rested and restored. So, I did a little bit of work. I did like one or two hours. I just did enough that made me feel a little less worried about stuff that I have to do but then, I let it go. I think I like watched Netflix and went to bed early. I took that Thai food for myself. I really took care of myself. And, I really followed where I wanted to be. I really responded to what I wanted for the day, including working.
[JOE]
Yeah. Well, then I think part of this series of slowing down is that idea of we go through the kind of what we need to pause. Then, we move into some practices. And then, we experience moments of really being present. For me, that pause, like every weekend I turn off my phone. I leave out by not doing any work stuff. On social media, I don’t check my email. I try my best to not think about work and to be as present as I can. But, during that kind of pause phase, there is that restless mind where I naturally go back to my email. I naturally go back to my Facebook. I’m like, “Wait. No. You’re not looking at Facebook right now. You’re not being efficient. You’re just playing with the kids.” Then, I think as you feel that time of things, whether it’s Netflix or different things that you choose to do, it makes it so much easier to move into that presence.
[MEGAN]
Exactly. I think I might have even gone to the gym. Like I certainly had a thought about, “Wait, I need to go to the gym. I need to do something.” I felt very, very good myself that weekend. I think the other thing is like, “Wow, look at that. I’m taking care of myself.” This is what we teach our clients. We have to practice it ourselves.
[JOE]
Yeah. So, after those 3 days, tell me what happened in your business after you slow down.

AFTER SLOWING DOWN

[MEGAN]
I had a crazy… I think I emailed you because I had so much energy. And, I felt like standing the mountaintop and being like, “Wow, this self-care stuff really works.” Even, I knew that. But, it was such an intense spike. You know, it wasn’t even just energy. It was also the satisfaction. I just felt more centered and happier about the decisions I was making. I’ve been feeling good, but I haven’t really taken the time to really reflect on the successes and kind of think about what I wanted to do looking forward. I felt kind of joyful and energized. It was fabulous.
[JOE]
That’s awesome. So, take me through then you get this energy, this mountaintop. What happened next? Did you have ups? Did you have downs? How did you keep that momentum going?
[MEGAN]
You know, I just kind of back to it. The week was with this many clients scheduled. I just kind of kept I think what I needed. What I took from that moment, first of all, is I need to keep planning this moment, these vacations whether they’re little micro-moments of, you know, I had another float. I had another massage. I took myself to get my nails done the other day like little gestures to myself that are restorative. I’ve put that into place pretty like deliberately and insistently from myself. I know how effective it is for me.
Now, I’m doing it because I always feel more rested and more centered and better clinically. So, that’s one thing that got put into place. And, the other thing is, you know, the big inside I had in the float tank was, “Do I want to be living my life where I’m rushing and trying to sit in all these clients.” The inside too is like money is very seductive. I had a hard time saying no to clients especially in this stage of the business. I want to know their private pay case. But, I don’t actually want another private pay case because I want to spend more time with my family. I don’t want to be feeling over tacked. So, you know, I said, “No” a little more for that weekend. I said, “No” to more clients and I was a little more compassionate with myself about doing one thing at a time on the to-do list. There’s still some more centered space.
[JOE]
I love that you use the term “the stage” because I do feel like there are times that you just sprint full force but if that becomes the lifestyle, you can’t sustain that. You know, when I was working at the college full-time, and then working evenings, and recording podcasts on Sundays, that helped get me to the point that I’m at. People will be like, “Oh, I want that. It’s great that you work 3 days a week.” Do you know how much I freaking work to get here?! It’s not like I just like work 3 days a week this whole time. I hustled for a while. That’s where you hear that like “Hustle, hustle, hustle…” To me, that’s just not a sustainable lifestyle for your own mental health but also for your client’s mental health.
[MEGAN]
That’s exactly right. And, actually, it is the lifestyle thought that I was thinking about. In the float tank, I was like, “Okay, I’m in this very centered space. What do I want my life to look like? What would be a good number a week? How many times do I want to try prep dinner?” In a positive way, not a burdened way, what do I want in our family evenings? How do I want our weekends to change? My focus shifted. It is a stage. My focus started to shift back like I thought about it like dance, you know, things have been flowing. And right now, I need to re-center on our lifestyle even as I grow the practice. It doesn’t have to be a choice but again, I want to have controlled momentum, not have that control me.
[JOE]
Yeah. Well, were there any tools or mindset tips that you used to kind of start to look at that lifestyle, maybe ways you priced things, or how you decide who you’re going to take on, who is not?

WHO TO TAKE ON?

[MEGAN]
That’s a great question. Yeah. I think I’ve gotten a little more confident about racing my rates and being clear on who I want to take so I might have compassion for somebody on the phone, but I have enough high-risk clients, and people who are struggling. I may not have the emotional energy to take some cases that I don’t have compassion for. Again, these cases are becoming very, very deliberate. And, the mindset that I have, I definitely have an abundance mindset. There’s plenty of work for all of us. It’s just a matter of stages and people are getting their names out there. I need to free myself of that starvation, mentality of that earlier stage when you’re new. “I got to get all the cases.” I don’t have to be in that mentality anymore. I have to liberate myself from a starvation mentality.
[JOE]
Now, for people that are at that phase of “Man, I’m bootstrapping it. I’m working so hard. I’m not getting the clients that I want.” Would you say that they should slow down at that point? Or is it just keep sprinting? And then, at this phase, you should start to have some of those self-care things within what you do?
[MEGAN]
I think that’s such an interesting question. To all of you, I’d say “Hang in there because you know, it gets better.” But, I think if it’s feeling that you’re not running the sprint and the sprint is running you, then, I think it’s time to slow down. But, if you have the energy for the sprint, and you’re invigorated by it, and you have the purpose, you’re sort of seizing the world, by all means, run it. I think it depends on the individual. If you’re feeling flooded and overwhelmed by the agitation element of it, it’s time to stop and look and see what’s working and what’s not working. See the life that you want to build. I’m not sure if it’s bad for any of us to take that moment. It’s not bad to sprint out either.
[JOE]
Sure, sure. I know that for me. When I was first launching my side practice. This was when I was down in Kalamazoo before I moved back to Traverse City. It was just my side gig. I was working at a CMH. I was in a group practice. So, it wasn’t my practice. I put in all this time to like to try and get referrals to match. That time I took insurance to match clients to the right insurance.
Finally, I was like to the point that I wanted. Then, this one week, I think I got three referrals. It just set me over the edge like “How am I going to do this?” Because I have my full-time job, I’m already full. I remember this moment on the couch with Christina. I just like broke down crying. It was just like, “This is too much.” It’s so hard when you tried so hard to get those clients and then finally you get them. And then, you realized I need to turn them away or I need to raise my rates. I need to limit my schedule. It’s just such a hard push and pulls.
[MEGAN]
Absolutely. It’s such a hard push and pulls. I think it’s like, you know, when you’ve been in the car for a really long time and you get out of the car and you still feel like you’re moving, it takes some adjustment. Actually, I’m not moving anymore. It does take some adjustment. It’s really hard. It’s very hard. I think what I said in the email, I think this is it a hazard of the entrepreneurial ship. It’s an emotional challenge. It’s like a private stress. For the entrepreneur, it’s tough.
[JOE]
Yeah. So, when you look forward, 2017 at the time of this recording, we’re entering 2017, how do you kind of plan out where you’re going to put your energy, where you’re going to pull back and retreat and slow down? Take us through how you think about your business in that way.

WHERE TO PUT YOUR ENERGY?

[MEGAN]
I’ve been thinking a lot about this. This year comes to a close. You know, my two sorts of vulnerabilities that I think a lot of us have. I still have a desire to sort of please and help people that call. That’s a hazard for me because I need to just stay on this focused space of being very clear with what I’m willing to take on or not take on. It’s taking me away from wanting me to grow the practice with hiring consultants and things like that. So, my focus for the next year is to try to really get a grip on this side of myself that urgently wants to say yes to people. But, really, I’m not the only clinician out there.
I’m not so egotistical and in-love with myself to think that I’m the only person that can help. But, I need to really kind of have a grip on that. And, also to get a grip on the seductiveness of money in balance with “Sure, I want to make more money, but I can actually make more money if I don’t take a couple of these cases.” And, I’ve spent some time developing groups which I am doing. We’re going to start a dialectical behavioral therapy group in January, but I can get a lot of groups off the ground. And, ultimately, it will be more profitable for business if I stop saying yes to so many people. Those are my two main, you know, falling into this trap of wanting to just help everybody and think pragmatically about these choices.
[JOE]
Well, I totally agree. So many of my consulting clients, when they get to this point where they’re making the amount of income they want, they’re working the amount they want, oftentimes, “How do I start to take things off my plate so that I can scale bigger?” I think that’s a jump that’s really difficult for people. And so, that could be adding people to a group practice. That could be having groups like you’re launching. That could be no longer are you the one who’s taking all the phone calls. How have you evaluated your use of time in order to continue to scale up and not to have work more hours?
[MEGAN]
Even now I’m wanting it?
[JOE]
Yeah! Or, other things that you are looking at outsourcing or things that you’re looking at to bring in extra income outside of just like your time into something, those sorts of things.
[MEGAN]
Yes. Yes. Definitely. I’m definitely looking at hiring contractors to help carry some of the cases that I can’t pick up. I have been toying with the idea of someone answering the phone. I think it’s a low investment. It’s not a very expensive solution. I think it would help me significantly because I wouldn’t be actually in the interaction or having so much empathy that I’m overwhelmed with it.
I’m definitely looking at, you know, maybe dealing with the phone calls, hiring more contractors, and looking at the groups and the contractors as ways to help me continue my goal to slow down more. I think I can level up more exponentially, the more I slow down. That’s the equation I’m really appreciating. If I can dial up back, I’ll have more energy and resources of all sorts to actually make a bigger difference in the community.
[JOE]
Yeah. I think what I found is that as I’ve dialed back, and most weeks just work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday that my contractors now kind of know, “I need Joe. I need to catch him before Thursdays when he leaves.” Unless it’s an emergency, he’s probably not going to get back to me until next Tuesday. And so, the people around you start to learn when you’re available when you’re not.
Even just being able to ask my assistant, to say, “Can you handle this with regard to this case?” Someone needs a referral for something or they want a schedule. And, they emailed me instead of the intake person. To just pass it off to them and say, “Hey, can you call them and coordinate this?” To have her do that for a quarter of an hour, that’s crazy. That’s like $5 out of my bucket that I’m paying her to do this. Yeah. So, I either have the free time or I could see another client.
[MEGAN]
Exactly. I think, you know, we talk about money issues. I know I did some podcast and I have to work through my own money issues. I’ve thought about how… so, I’m scheduling a vacation for early January. This will be great to say publicly. It will make me adhere to it even more. January 2nd, I’m trying to take off. It’s been an interesting work to hold firm to that. So, even this morning, I had a call. He was trying to, you know, insist that we need that week. I was like, “You know what, I have to hold my ground on this.” I’m seeing the insistence. I need to sort of like, “I got to protect this time. This vacation needs to happen.” Sort of like I has to evolve money issue stuff. Now, I have to work through the protect my time and stuff like that. This is clearly the stage I’m in.
[JOE]
Absolutely. And, I feel like that’s one of those things that it’s easy to slip away from that because you’ll always have a client that’s like, “Are you sure you’re not free that Monday?” Well, it’s just for that one person. And then, it’s like when someone says, “Could you be free on that Monday?” I’m like well, I’m already coming in for those hours. So, even like my wife, she goes every year with a group of her friends.
In past years, I’ve seen a client here. I’ve done a webinar, a consulting thing. But then, my parents or somebody has to watch the girls. And this year, I was like, no, I’m going to be with my kids. I’m going to hang out with them. We’re going to have a really big, long fun staycation. We’ll do great things. But, looking at my schedule, like the days that I’m working that week, I’m like so filled already. I’m like, “Oh geez, some people won’t be able to see me until late January. How’s that going to work?” But, I’m going to be a better clinician and I’m going to be a better dad. I’m going to be a better business owner if I create the life that I want and then work the work into kind of that schedule.
[MEGAN]
Exactly. So, well said. I couldn’t agree more. Yes.
[JOE]
So, in regard to goals setting, especially you said looking at your rates, do you use any sort of formula to decide what you’re going to charge based on your lifestyle? How do you determine your rates?
[MEGAN]
You know, I haven’t done that, and I don’t imagine I’ll do that now because I’m already sort of set in this path. I could certainly revisit it. You know, I set my rates obviously based on… Here’s how I set my first rate. I look at everybody was charging on psychology today. I went $10 higher because I wanted to convey that you know, I should be getting a little more. It’s sort of like, you know, I’m luxurious. I’m fabulous. I’m high-end. That’s how I started it. And then, I did ask around and I’ve met some colleagues. They always bring you these humbling moments. I’ve come across colleagues and they realized what I’m charging. They’re not even advertising. So, I’m trying to increase this sort of like what sort of my colleagues there in the field that is fabulous, what they’ve been charging for a while.
My other formula I think we’ve probably talked about this in consulting. I know sometimes it’s talked about on the Facebook groups and stuff. I can’t take all the people that want to become right now. So, I am thinking about increasing my rate again. You know, I think that might help. That’s sort of what I’m doing.
[JOE]
I think that just really shows how it’s an ongoing process and it’s an ongoing evaluation. You start with what you think is the best rate and the fair rate for what you do. And then, you raise it over time and evaluate that. And, so much of our businesses started that way where we just kind of think through what’s the logical next step here.
[MEGAN]
Exactly.
[JOE]
So, Megan Warner, if there was one thing that you wanted to share with counselors around the world, what would you want them to know?

IF EVERY COUNSELORS ARE LISTENING RIGHT NOW

[MEGAN]
I think, especially based on this conversation and thinking about, you know, life lately, I think what I would say is that you have to listen to your body, and your mind, and your thoughts, and your psyche. You know, if you’re feeling like things are not compatible with the life you want to lead, then it’s time to stop and take a break. Slow down. Create some space for yourself to reflect. So, you can define what it is that you want to have. And so, I guess another way to say that is I think slowing down really is an investment both in yourself and in your business. It’s worth making. We all sort to have this guilty feeling that we shouldn’t take a vacation, we shouldn’t take a break. But, actually, taking a break is good for the business and it’s good for you. So, do it.
[JOE]
Well, said, Megan. Dang. Dr. Megan Warner, her website is meganwarnerphd.com. You can connect with her there. Thanks, so much Megan for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[MEGAN]
Such a pleasure. Thank you, Joe.
[JOE]
So, I’m doing this whole series about slowing down to spark innovation. And, there are three videos that go along with it as well, so you can get the most out of this series. Head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/slowdownvideo. And, you can get those 3 videos about how to spark innovation, what to do with those sparks, and the one thing that you can do this year. Thanks so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. We’ll talk to you soon.

[Special thanks to the band Silent is Sexy. Thank you for your music. And, this podcast is designed to provide accurate and intuitive information in regard to the subject matter covered. It’s given to the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinic, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.]