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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 387.
Welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I’m Joe Sanok, your host and I just had a protein chocolate shake that had some peanut butter powder in it too. Super low carb, trying to have a little more protein in my life while not eating a ton of meat. So, I’ve been doing, I did this, you may have heard of Timothy Ferris’ The 4-Hour Workweek and then I read The 4-Hour Body. So, tried some lifting and actually by the time this podcast goes live, hopefully I’ll have survived a triathlon. That’s my goal. So, I’ve been swimming and biking and running a little bit this summer to hopefully do, I don’t care about doing well. I just want to survive and I am so glad swimming is first because that’s not my strongest and that would be super scary to be tired and be in the water. So, that’s where the cough came from.
I was, because a little bit of that peanut butterness is still in my throat. So, hey, I hope you’re awesome. I hope your private practice is awesome. I hope if you are new here that you feel welcome and that you go back and watch or listen to a bunch of the podcasts we also have on YouTube. We have a whole bunch of videos there. Just go over to the Practice of the Practice. I am just off. It just punched my microphone. Maybe time to go home for the day. Just trying to get some of these done. Well, today we are talking to Cedric Bertelli and he’s going to talk about some really fascinating research around the brain and kind of how this method of his, that they’ve been working with just really helps people make rapid progress. And I’m so excited for it.
The only thing I want to tell you about is that on August 19th, that’s when Killin’It Camp tickets close for the regular prices. And so, you’re only going to get the night owl prices, which are $150 more for delaying. And so Killin’It Camp, it is the private practice all-inclusive conference out in Estes Park, Colorado. You fly to Denver; you get a ride from there up to Estes Park and then we take care of the food and entertainment and the conference for you. You’re welcome to bring your own drinks there and, we are going to have an amazing time where we help you just learn to kill it in private practice. We’re going to have new friendships. We’re going to talk about what’s working in private practice, and honestly, it’s those informal conversations of how people are doing things that just stick with you.
So, make sure you go over to killingitcamp.com to grab your ticket. It’s so cheap compared to most conferences. I mean, most conferences you spend a couple hundred dollars a night just on the hotel, then you’re paying for food on top of that and it’s not even a super awesome place usually. So, come hang out with us in Estes Park. It’s October 20th to 23rd, this coming fall. If you hear this sometime in the future after that, our plan is to do it again. So, we’ll have more information again after it. So, it’s going all be killingitcamp.com. So, without any further ado, I give you Cedric.
Well, today in the Practice of the Practice podcast, we have Cedric Bertelli. He is the founder and director of the Emotional Health Institute. Cedric is a French origin and has lived in the San Francisco Bay area for over 10 years. He began his training in emotional resolution in 2009 in France and has continued his work in the United States since 2011. Cedric, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[CEDRIC]: Hello Joe. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[JOE]: Oh, we just found out that you were in Traverse City recently, which is awesome, and also sad that I didn’t get to meet you in person, but one of your best friends lives here in Traverse City.

[CEDRIC]: Yes, and one of my very best friends Vince lives there. He moved there in his grandmother’s farm, the boon farm with his wife and they’ve been living there for three, four years now.

[JOE]: Wow, that’s so awesome. So, when you come back, we’ll have to hang out and get a beer or some cider or something because —

[CEDRIC]: Yes, definitely. I will love that.

[JOE]: Yes. So Traverse City is like right on the water here with the farms around it and kind of a cool downtown. So, it’s so funny when people have been here, because usually they’re like, “I remember Traverse City because it’s just a unique little town on the water.”

[CEDRIC]: Yes. I love that every time I go there, I’ve been there three times now and, the first time we went they took me around Lake Michigan on this little villages and you remind me completely of California in a weird way. Like you go down to Half Moon Bay here in California and it’s very similar in some ways. It’s a fisherman village and lovely.

[JOE]: Yes. Wow. So, that’s awesome to have that connection. So, tell me a little bit about emotional resolution. So, you’ve been studying this and teaching people this, where should we start just to give people if they’ve never heard of it, why don’t we start there? If they’ve never heard of that idea, what does that mean?

[CEDRIC]: Well, emotional resolution is a process? I started working with it in 2009 back in the day. So, before 2009, I was doing something very different with my life. I was the director of restaurants for the Ritz Carlton hotels.

[JOE]: Oh, wow.

[CEDRIC]: So completely different. I was working in restaurants and hotels and the reason that I shifted careers is because I was going through, and I mean for the first 29 years of my life, I will say I was going through a lot of anxiety and a lot of anger and this kind of stuff. And during my professional career, I was always trying to be a better leader and to feel better in my skin as well and trying different things, I found a program in France that was called TPA at the time that was claiming that they could resolve any kind of emotional pattern, disruptive emotional pattern within 30 minutes. I was in the U.S. at that time when I learned about them. I was skeptical. You bet I was but I gave it a try.
I did a session with one guy in France through Skype. And whatever emotion I worked on, it was a specific anger that I was feeling toward a coworker. The emotion worked on did not come back after one session, one single session. So, I became interested. I started to read about this program, et cetera, et cetera, and finally took a training where they taught me how to resolve my own emotional difficulties on myself by myself. I did that while I was still working in the Ritz here in California. After six months of noticing that these emotions that I worked on, four main emotions that I worked on at that time, after noticing that those emotions didn’t come back, I was puzzled and I contacted the program and decided to quit my job here in California and go back to France to study with them for two years.
That’s how I got introduced to this concept of emotional resolution. In 2011, I came back in the U.S. with the intention of starting a practice and start teaching this work. This is what I did, little by little. It wasn’t easy at first, I can tell you that. When you tell people that you can actually resolve patterns that quickly, people are skeptical and often not willing to try but little by little I was able to build a strong practice and in 2012 I founded the Emotional Health Institute together with a doctor from France and a professor from Germany. Now the purpose of the Emotional Health Institute is to teach therapists, doctors, nurses, policemen, firemen, how the brain works when it comes down to emotion and how to allow the brain to resolve permanently disruptive emotional pattern.

[JOE]: Wow. So, I mean, I think about like, if a psychiatrist was listening right now, they would say, “Well, no, there’s things that are hardwired into the brain and there’s other kind of patterns that have been deeply wired and there is no way that this can happen.” And so, for those people that would push back like that, and I would say I’m probably one of them like, how do you describe what’s happening in the brain when you experience that, but then also when you see clients or other clinicians that are implementing this?

[CEDRIC]: Yes, absolutely. So, first of all, it’s, I think demystification to do about emotions. There’s a wonderful book that explains that so well at school; How Emotions Are Made by Liza Barrett Feldman who really explains the neuroscience of emotion. In a nutshell, the way that I could explain how this works is, you know, let’s say one of the main job, but one of the main characteristic of the brain is that the brain predicts. The brain does not react to stimuli. The brain predicts based on past experiences. If the brain was reacting, we would be long dead. You know, if we just spend our life reacting to stimuli, we couldn’t survive the world. The brain predicts constantly. That’s why when we are about to bite an Apple before biting the Apple, we know already how the Apple is going to taste like.

[JOE]: Yes. It’s like —

[CEDRIC]: It’s a production.

[JOE]: I remember my daughter, and this is just a weird story. So, she was probably three at the time and this one night I had had a tequila soda and I left it out overnight. Like I hadn’t finished it and it was in a glass that she shouldn’t have been drinking out of, but she thought it was her glass and she drank the water at breakfast. Her brain said to her, “This is not how water should taste.” And she said, “Dad, this water is [inaudible 00:11:00].” And I’m like, “No, it’s just regular water. It just sat out overnight,” thinking it was like her water.
Then she took another step and she’s like, “No, it’s not. I smelled it and was this tequila soda.” And so, we’ve all had those things when we expect one food and the brain is predicting it and then it doesn’t fit, and you’re like, “Whoa, wait.” And something that would normally taste fine to you, maybe tastes gross because it had predicted incorrectly.

[CEDRIC]: Absolutely. And the brain doesn’t understand. It predicts one thing and that’s not correct. That’s a problem. Yes, absolutely. So, if you eat an ice cream which is pink, you expect it’s strawberry ice cream, and actually, let’s say it’s a salmon mousse. Well, it’s first funny, disgusting but then if after a while you decide to go to this shop because you want to taste salmon mousse, you know you’re going to expect it and it’s going to taste delicious if you like salmon mousse.

[JOE]: Yes.

[CEDRIC]: Absolutely. So, the brand predicts, and when it comes down to emotion, it is the same thing. What we understand today about emotional pattern and how an emotional pattern can be created; it seems that the pattern can be created by two elements, a disruptive emotional pattern. One of the element is an unwilling short loss of consciousness. A moment when we lose consciousness without really wanting it. That can create a pattern in the future. Now, when do that happen to us? That happens to us, okay, if we have an accident, for example, but it’s fairly rare to lose consciousness like that.
However, it happens a lot during the birth process. When we come out of the room, it’s very common for us to raise consciousness several times. This will impact our emotional state later on as a child, as a teenager, as an adult. The [inaudible 00:12:53] bone that can create a pattern from what we understand today in neuroscience is a very high stress. When there is a very high stress, there is a normal process that happens in the brain, which is that the cognitive brain is shutting down to protect us.
However, during those two events, either way, the loss of consciousness or during a very high stress, the subconscious brain doesn’t stop. During a trauma, where we’re going to call it trauma, during a trauma, the subconscious brain keeps on recording everything that is happening; what is happening around us, what we see, what we smell, what we hear, what we feel, and what is happening inside of us. Our physical sensations present during these traumatic event. Those physical sensations, in neuro science, we call that the interoception. later on, — go ahead —

[JOE]: So is that because the brain wants to keep being able to predict, so it says, “Oh, it was raining that day. It was 56 degrees that day.” So, it’s taking in all of that so that it can, in the mind’s mind be able to predict that danger in the future and then hopefully be able to prepare for it?

[CEDRIC]: Yes, you’re absolutely right. It might be the reason why. I don’t know exactly if that’s the reason why. All I know is that the subconscious brain do not stop working. Never. You know, it always records what’s happening around. It’s a bit like a black box of a plane and it might be to protect the body later on. Absolutely. But if I may, let’s say that, okay, there is a trauma that happened. Okay. And then, okay, we move on either way because we are a baby and we cannot do anything about it or if there is a trauma that happened to us and we move on in life.
Later on when the subconscious brain is going to find itself in a situation, when the body is going to find itself in a situation where it recognizes, where it captures one of the elements that was prisoned during one of those traumatic events, it is going to predict automatically what we’re going to feel in our body. Is going to predict the interception because that’s the way we know that we fit in an emotion. You probably know that, but just in case some of our audience don’t know that yet, but if your audience, I’m sure they do, the way that an emotion comes in the buddy is first through a sensorial response, first through physical sensations, and when the cognitive brain cannot shut down those sensations automatically, that’s where an emotion exists. Emotions always start with a set of physical sensations. The set of the physical sensations is a prediction from the subconscious brain. There is —

[JOE]: So, say that again. So, emotions always start with a physical sensation. So, what’s an example of that?

[CEDRIC]: Absolutely. Well, for example, Joe, how do you know that you’re angry?

[JOE]: Oh, well because Cedric you just got me angry. No, I’m just kidding. I’m so angry because this podcast recording didn’t, I mean, because I feel it in my body. Yes. So, I mean, I guess, yes. So, you might feel kind of a heating up or maybe a loss of control when you’re like, if, I don’t know, I’m typing something and just like, “Oh, I did that wrong.” So, yes. That’s something physical.
Absolutely. Every single one off our emotional difficulties starts by a physiological response. And that the neuroscientists all over the world will agree on that. Neural science is a very new science, but that’s a fact, that an emotional response always starts with physical sensations. When the brain cannot control, when the cognitive brain cannot control those physical sensations, cannot make sense of them and stop them right away, that’s when an emotion exists. You see, for example, to take an example, let’s say you and I we go for walk in Traverse City or in the country around Traverse City.
At some point we stopped by a bush and reach out there. We look at the view and we look at the bush and at some point the bush starts to move slowly. We look at it and out of the bush come out a tiny little mouse. And as you see the mouse and you think it’s cute, you know, you smiling or you don’t think twice about it. As I see the mouse, “Wow,” I start to freak out. I’m afraid of mice. What happened there? Well, I see the mouse, right away my body has a physical reaction. Even if I understand very clearly intellectually, because I’m a pretty bright guy, that this mouse is not going to hurt me or you in any way. Even if I understand that that doesn’t stop the physical sensations in my body and that’s when I feel the fear.
It is the same pattern for every single disruptive emotional pattern. Basically, a disruptive emotional pattern, all it is in a nutshell is a wrong prediction from the subconscious brain. A prediction that never was able to be updated. What we’re doing with emotional resolution is to update a prediction so the body doesn’t have to predict it any way, any longer the same way.

[JOE]: So, I mean, I imagine that there’s people that are thinking, “Well yes, but there’s things we have to work through, you know, whether it’s our parents or a trauma or a sexual assault. I have to work through all those emotions.” How do you work with someone that’s had a really pronounced, say a sexual assault? I mean, that’s something that, I mean, my gut reaction would say, “Well, yes, maybe there’s a wrong prediction of the brain, but they went through something so traumatic.” But how does this model work with someone that’s had really intense things like that happen to them?

[CEDRIC]: Yes, that’s a great question. Well, let’s say a sexual assault, if a person had been sexually assaulted years ago, it can definitely be resolved or helped with. What we call emotional homeostasis takes about three months. I mean, so when there is very, very traumatic events such as a sexual assault I mean, you will take at least three months for the person to start to integrate this event in their life. So that doesn’t mean that after three months, everything will be fine. Not at all. It takes about three months to start to integrate such a big event in our lives.

[JOE]: And by integrate, do you mean make meaning out of it? Like drill into that a little bit. What do you mean to integrate?

[CEDRIC]: Yes. Make meaning out of it. Start to take it as a new information so it would be as a part of our lives again. Basically, start to move on with this traumatic event that had happened in our lives. So, start an integration, but let’s say that, and it’s normal that it takes several months, several years to get over it, but let’s say that a traumatic such as a sexual assault happened years ago and the person is still very much suffering from this. Yes, the traumatic assault that happened. There’s nothing we can do about it. Absolutely. However, we’re not meant to carry the trauma of such assault for lifelong. The way that we’ll be working with someone who went through a sexual assault will be to ask the person, “What is the repercussion in your life today of this assault?” So, with my work, we will not revisit the trauma or anything like that.
That’s the work of a therapist. That’s not what I do. Often therapists send me clients because they’ve been working with them for a long time and they’ve been working and talking around the trauma around the childhood or whatever it is that they’re working on. The person, the patients or the client understand very well the pattern, the emotional pattern and why the pattern is here, but that they cannot feel relief from the pattern. That’s where I come into action and where people I train come into action.
So, somebody who has been sexually assaulted again, I would ask today, “What is the problem in your life? What is the impact in your life? “And the person will say, well, for example, “I cannot be intimate with my partner. I just can’t. I block.” So, what we will do is we will take a specific situation, current specific situation where they see that the trauma is impacting them today. A specific demo. This person wanted to be sexually or intimate with their partner. From a current situation, a current repercussion of the trauma, we will help the brain to regenerate an emotion. The emotion which is felt during, that was felt during that emotion, that situation. The buddy is going to generate automatically a set of physical sensations, the interoception.
Now, when someone is about to stay consciously with the physical sensations present during an emotion without trying to impact them, without trying to control them or without trying to understand what’s happening. So, it’s just simply staying with the interoception. The body sensations during an emotion, if you stay connected with them, do not stay static. They start to evolve. They start to move, they start to follow a process. The same process that they followed the date that the trauma happened. Basically, what we understand today is that the physical sensations present during an emotion today were the very first sensation that were present in our body the day that the trauma happened,
The simple fact, so to speak, to stay connected from a current perspective, from a safe place where they have both a therapist for example, to stay connected to those physical sensations without impacting them whatsoever, but to just be prisoned consciously show the brain that today in your current life, what was taken by the subconscious brain as a stimulus based on the past experience is today obsolete. And you show that to your subconscious brain by staying conscious during those sensations and showing that your body and your mind stay safe and sound during this experience. You are able to go through this stimulus feeling the wrong prediction of the body from a safe place. Nothing happened to you anymore. The prediction of the brain will be automatically and instantly updated. So, go ahead.

[JOE]: Yes. It reminds me of, I was listening to Eckhart Tolle and Oprah were having, they were discussing his book, A New Earth. That podcast, I think it’s a 10 part or 12-part podcast. And he was, Eckhart Tolle was talking about how when people want to quit smoking and they create it as an act, “I need to stop smoking,” it’s, you know, they fail. But that he’s found success in encouraging people to smoke mindfully, to fully feel how the body feels as it’s smoking. And that oftentimes through being that mindful and in touch with their bodies, they then want to give up the smoking because that hyper awareness of what your body’s feeling in that situation makes people oftentimes say, “I don’t want to do this anymore,” or it’s easier for them to quit.
And I wonder if he’s kind of tapping into something similar to what you are discussing where, you know, when we’re in that safe space realizing, “Yes, this trauma happened, I was unsafe, but I need to update my brain to say that that’s not an ongoing danger, and that when these feelings and the physical sensations come up that I am in a safe place.” I love that idea of kind of updating your subconscious.

[CEDRIC]: And in that story it is. It works wonders, and it makes sense when we start to look at how the brain works. You know, we, the brain constantly updates prediction. Like, for example, your daughter now, if she sees your glass half full in the morning, she’s going to say, “Well, maybe not —

[JOE]: That’s daddy’s leftover tequila. No, I just finish it now.

[CEDRIC]: And you know, if after several of them you say, “No, honey, don’t leave tequila any more on the counter, she’s going to say, “Okay, maybe that’s just water.” It’s good prediction. It’s going to be updated again. But that’s how we grow in life. That’s how we learn. The brain constantly, you know, the prediction, now every time we have even an emotional difficulty, such as, “If I’ve been sexually abused 20 years ago and every time I’m trying to be intimate with my partner, I have this stronger reaction and all this blockage and every time I try to control it or act out of it or basically, reinforcing that the prediction of my subconscious is correct.” I am fighting my emotion or acting on my emotion when actually if I simply, and that’s when a therapist can help as well, of course. If I feel safe and I have the wheel to tap into those physical sensations and observe those physical sensation during, they are finished through the process, basically, it’s all it takes for me not to have this reaction anymore.

[JOE]: Yes. I mean as I hear this, I’m thinking people might say, “I really want to learn more about this technique,” because to have that level of change in clients, I mean, we’ve all had those clients that it’s like, “Oh, come on, I’m banging my head against the wall here.” And there may be more on the clinical side that you want to talk about and we can weave that in, but what does it look like when people start to add this to their practice? What’s kind of a typical training program for therapists? What are typical results for them with their clients? What do you hear back from people that really dive into this more?

[CEDRIC]: Yes. Well first of all, I love working with therapists because it’s, I think this work needs to be in your hands, guys, in the sense that you can slowly, they’re home-based, bring people to face that pattern. Very often it’s difficult to face a pattern. Very often we’re in the blame game or we’re blaming such and such circumstances on why we’re feeling that way. It’s important to bring a client to recognizing that this emotion is them. At the end of the day, sure we got to understand why it’s there and how it came and understand why you’re this way today. But it’s very, I think empowering for people to say, “Okay, this emotion is actually mine. It almost at some point, doesn’t matter how it got there, because once it’s mine, I have the power to change it.”
So, therapists who take my training or take our training at the Emotional Health Institute training take the client, the patient to recognize the pattern. When do I feel that way? In what circumstances? Once the client is ready to phase the pattern, that’s when the therapist can do an emotional resolution system based on a current situation, a current impact of the emotion today. So, what is going to be the result? Well, it’s quite simple. The person will not feel that emotion ever again. And it’s like everything when you have a traumatic event, for example, okay, let’s say a rape, a traumatic event is not going to create only one problem in our life today.
You know, if there is a traumatic event and there is a repercussion today, a very clean, simple repercussion, one traumatic event can create a lot of repercussions in our life. Well, the therapist can take the person through looking at every single repercussion, own it and resolve it. So, the result is that the client moves on, moves on and can go deeper into, accept is it easier or psychic, and go further and grow and become better.

[JOE]: So, take me through how you started to transition from helping clients to teaching therapists because I know that we have a lot of people in private practice. They’re really good with EMDR or they’re great with couples or some sort of specific topic and they’re saying to themselves, “I know that what I’ve learned can apply to other therapists and I would love to figure out how to train them.” But it’s more than just saying, “I’m an expert and being a couple’s therapist ”,” you know, like there’s a lot more that goes into it than that to kind of start a training Institute. And a bunch of people in our big ideas mastermind are working on this very thing in a community. For you, what was helpful in working from just the one on one perspective to then starting to train other therapists in this approach?

[CEDRIC]: Yes, absolutely. Well, I got lucky because I good trained by this program called TP. The program trained me to teach basically after becoming a one-on-one practitioner. After a certain amount of sessions, I went to see the program and I say, “Listen, I really want to bring this work to the USA. Would you teach me how to teach?” So, during basically two years they taught me how to hold a training and they trained me on that. So, for me it was quite easy as I got trained through the program, how to teach.
So, we developed, what we did is understanding from the understanding of how the brain works and how the brain predicts and how the brand can update prediction. We created several protocols that allow us to help clients that don’t actually feel an emotion right now. Basically, we can recreate the emotion to use this natural capacity for emotional resolution and we developed protocol to help children. We developed protocol with four people who were in a crisis. Once those protocols have been designed, we designed a course to teach them the most natural way, the easiest way possible.
So, the way we design our course is very hand-on. There is a lot of practices during our course; there is, of course theory, but it’s mostly hands on. My goal is really to convey how the brain works so the person, the therapist who will take the training, can really own this knowledge and instead of applying a technique or playing a process, to really understand what’s happening in their client’s body, in their client’s brain so they can be fully efficient with this tool.

[JOE]: Wow. What haven’t we covered? Because I feel like I don’t, there’s probably questions I don’t even know to ask around whether it’s your development of the curriculum or whether it’s just the actual clinical work. What haven’t I asked that you feel is really important to make sure that we touch on in regards to this approach?

[CEDRIC]: Maybe then the training for therapists is not very long because, I’m not a therapist, I’m not touching into the [inaudible 00:34:53] or anything like that. In order for a therapist to be completely masterful of this tool, it only takes four modules. It’s a total of five days in person trainings; three days and then later on two days and then, two days of trainings on Skype or via Zoom. Those trainings are only for small groups. I only teach ten therapists at a time, so you can really become masterful in this tool and have amazing results within seven days of training straight. There’s of course various continuous education in the sense that we keep on training people on and on to make sure they really master the process and they don’t take bad habits, so to speak. So, it’s easy and short to learn, very highly efficient and it is life changing and practice changing for therapists.

[JOE]: Well, Cedric, the last question I always ask people is if every private practice owner, we’re listening right now in the world, what would you want them to know?

[CEDRIC]: I want them to know that it’s completely possible to resolve disruptive emotional pattern for ourselves as practitioners, as therapists. We have, I mean, we hear so many stories. It is possible for us first of all to resolve our emotional pattern and it is completely possible to bring a client or patient to resolve even deeper traumas or behaviors, behavioral difficulties. It is possible. The brain is wired to do it. If we give you the opportunity to do so and we can teach you that.

[JOE]: Oh, that’s so awesome. And Cedric, if people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more from you, what’s the best way for them to connect?

[CEDRIC]: The best way is from my website. It is cedricbertelli.com.

[JOE]: Great. And we’ll put a link to that in the show notes. Cedric, thanks so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[CEDRIC]: My pleasure. Great questions. It was a pleasure talking with you Joe. Thank you so much.

[JOE]: Bye.

[CEDRIC]: Bye.

[JOE]: Well thanks so much inviting us into being your guides to starting, growing and scaling your private practice and your big ideas. So many of you are launching keynotes and e-courses and podcasts. It’s so exciting for us. Reach out to us if you need any help with any of that. And, hey if you need electronic health records, do that through Therapy Notes. Therapynotes.com, they’re the premier service provider. Use promo ‘Joe’ to get two months for free.
Also, head on over to killingitcamp.com. That’s where you can get those regular price tickets for Killin’It Camp. Those stopped being sold on August 19th. Then you got to pay the night owl prices and I don’t want you to do that if you’re planning to come. If you’re not planning to come, don’t do either of those things. Thanks for letting me into your ears and into your brain. I’ll talk to you soon.
This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither of the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one and special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy. We love your intro music.