[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 771. I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. Over the last few episodes, we heard from some of our Audience Building Academy folks who are leveling up beyond private practice. Last time you heard my fulfillment story, where you get to hear a little bit about some of my story of private practice and leveling up into podcasting and for most of the rest of the month and into, not most of, all of the rest of the month, all of August and into September, we’re going to be interviewing people that have leveled up in really unique ways; people that have been in private practice and changed how they do it, people who have started group practices, all in preparation for September 12th when we kick off Level Up Week. We’re going to have over 15 webinars all about different phases of practice, whether you’re just getting started and you want to know what are those steps you take when you just get going? When do you maybe add a clinician to your practice as a solo practitioner that’s doing really well? How do you grow a group practice? Then even maybe you want to start an e-course or a podcast or level up even beyond the practice. Level Up Week is going to hit you at every one of those touchpoints no matter where you’re at. Make sure you had an over to practiceofthepractice.com/levelup. You’ll see all of the events there. Our amazing team of Jess and the Sams and our whole team in South Africa have been getting that all together for you. It really has brought our whole team together to say we’re going to focus on Level Up week, twice a year to really allow you guys to all level up at around the same time of the year. Well, I’m really excited to have Liz Gray today on the show. Liz is a licensed clinical social worker and organization queen on a mission to help highly sensitive therapists gain time, flexibility, and freedom by harnessing the power of systems in their businesses. Using her royal combination of mindset and system savvy Liz delivers powerful transformations for overwhelmed private practice owners during her signature, Organized and Thrive VIP. Days when she’s not creating spreadsheets or color-coded lists, you can find Liz cuddling with her mini–Golden Doodle. Oh my gosh, Bailey is the mini–Golden Doodle. My parents have a brand new mini. Golden Doodle named Copper. Another thing we’ve got in common, exploring Chicago with her husband, Dave. Liz, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. So glad that you’re here today. [LIZ GRAY] Thank you. I am so excited to be here and I love talking mini–Golden Doodles with anyone. [JOE] Oh my gosh. I knew, you know that I like dogs and I hadn’t really like loved dogs. Not that I hated them, but copper, oh my gosh, that little spunky guy, he’s so cute. We have something else in common we just realized is we both love sleeping in. You slept in until what, like 10:45 this morning? [LIZ] I did, yes. This is the first thing that I scheduled for the day because — [JOE] I love it. Yes, I am that way too. My seven-year-old, she just can sleep and sleep too, whereas Lucia, my 11-year-old, she just jumps out bed and is like ready to go at 7:15 every morning, between 7:15 and 7:17, she’s got a two minute window there that she springs out of bed. Oh, well Liz, I want to hear a little bit of your private practice story and how you leveled up into the work that you do now. Tell us a little bit about getting started in private practice, what that looked like. I know you had some moves in there. Tell us about that story. [LIZ] Yes, so this was back in maybe 2016 where I was living in Illinois. Things were fine, but I was a school social worker, married, and just doing my thing. Decided, after thinking a lot, because I’m highly sensitive and, of course, I needed to think and do a lot of research, I decided I wanted to open a part-time private practice while I was still working as a school social worker. So I did that in Illinois and I realized very quickly that there were a lot of pieces of it that I was really good at and really enjoy doing, like the behind-the-scenes system stuff, which we’ll get into. But in terms of actual therapy, it was a big jump because I realized that as a school social worker, it was more crisis intervention and really filling a lot of roles and wearing all these different hats, but not feeling like I was really a therapist or an expert in anything. So I remember being really surprised about how difficult it was to go into private practice because I’m like, whoa, I thought I had these clinical skills and actually, I don’t know if I do. I did it for a while and at that time I’m still trying to figure out, is this what I want to do? I’m not sure. Then my husband who works for the airlines, got a job offer that he just couldn’t pass up and it was in New York, so we decided together that we were going to move to Connecticut. I would get licensed in Connecticut, he would commute to New York and I was like, okay, this is my chance. I’m going to go for it. I’m going to open up my private practice. We had no idea how long we were going to be there, if it was going to be six months or forever so I got a beautiful office space. I furnished it, I got my business cards and my website, and I did all the things. My first client, without going into too much detail, I knew that it wasn’t the right fit at the very beginning, which we may get into the talking about the importance of really screening clients to make sure it’s the right fit. I knew right away. I still went ahead and had an intake just because I wanted to just see if maybe it was a family that I could help. During the intake, it was very apparent to me that I actually, I would not be able to work with this family. I did call to refer them out afterwards and sure enough the family threatened to sue me and to bring me to small claims court and demanded their money back for the intake. I was absolutely horrified. I was in, had just moved across the country. I didn’t know anyone here I had taken all this time and effort to set up a private practice and from the very beginning, there was a lot of fear that was instilled in me because of this threat. It was really terrifying and I basically was like in freeze mode for most of the year that we were there. So when we decided to move back to the Chicago area, I actually decided I don’t know if right now is the time for me to continue to have a private practice if it doesn’t feel right. That’s in a nutshell my private practice story. I was able to form Organize and Thrive. It used to be called Organizer Private Practice while I was still in Connecticut and that carried through. So even when I was in Connecticut and back in Illinois, I did have Organize and Thrive, which started as a Facebook group and now has evolved into more than that but I realized that even though having a private practice wasn’t the direction that I was meant to go, that I was able to take all the experience of having that practice of understanding what it’s like and I’m able to integrate all of my systems, my business and systems savvy, all of that, and be able to help other private practice owners in their own journeys. [JOE] Now early on, did you ever have any imposter syndrome because I could totally see how you may have the skills to do all these things and to say, I know systems I’m good at spreadsheets and all that, but to worry about if someone says, well you didn’t have a thriving organized practice. How dare you do this? Did you ever get any of that pushback from people? [LIZ] I don’t think I got pushback from other people, but definitely for myself. So when you say imposter syndrome, I mean, you can’t see me, but, I’m over here like, yes, yes, me, a hundred percent, yes. Absolutely. It’s still something that from time to time comes up for me and that’s when I go to my trusted friends and colleagues and coaches and therapists and talk about it. Because I think with imposter syndrome, we all feel like we’re in it alone but the truth is, I think a lot of us feel that way, but if we don’t talk about it, we don’t know that it’s happening. [JOE] I think that there’s people that maybe do consulting and maybe they never had a group practice and they’re saying, here’s how you do a group practice. It’s like, well that’s where you really need to have lived it. But it sounds like the work that you got into really is taking things that you already had as a skill set and applying it to the situation, even though you realized I don’t want to do private practice. Like it doesn’t light me up, it’s not where I want to spend my time. [LIZ] Yes, a hundred percent. Again, I think I’m my own biggest critic when it comes to this because I do have to take a step back and realize I do have the experience. What’s really good at a lot of the pieces of it, so let me take what I’m good at and what I love to do and help other people who struggle in those areas. [JOE] So how did you first start forming this new venture because I think a lot of folks will overthink things over, plan things, delay because they’re worried that it might fail. What went well, what was crappy during that beginning phase of creating a new product for people? [LIZ] Do you mean with Organize and Thrive? [JOE] Yes. [LIZ] So it was when I was in Connecticut that I had been part of this mastermind group for play therapists who were forming their private practices. I remember one day just saying, putting a post out in the group, something like, So “I’m just wondering, do you guys have any ideas of what I can do because I’m creative and I’m organized and can I do that in some way to help people?” I just posed as this open-ended question and the community was so excited about it and they’re like, “Oh my god, Liz, you can start a Facebook group and you can have a business and you can do this and that.” I will admit that I have some difficulty with energy modulation at times, so I can go for a long time of not having a lot of energy and feeling burnout and then I get invested in something and it’s like, oh my gosh, I’m going to put everything into it. At that time I just moved across the country, I was really struggling and suddenly I had this idea for this new thing. I didn’t know at the time that it was going to turn into what it is now, Organize and Thrive but I started a Facebook group and a website and right away I’m just, I was so excited about it of I think having just somewhere to put a lot of my energy because I didn’t, I mean, I was like just floating along in this. I didn’t really know what was going on. I think I was so overwhelmed and so terrified and just had a lot of fear that finally like having something that felt like it anchored me to my own strengths, but also to other people. That was like an aha moment for me. [JOE] Oh, wow. Now when you work with private practitioners, what are some of the systems that you would say here’s some operations or some systems or some mindsets that’s going to really help them get to the next level? [LIZ] One of them is consultations. From the very beginning, and clearly based on what I’ve shared of my story, it’s really, I mean, this is near and dear to my heart that we really have to be really picky about who we work with. I know that some therapists, we all have different opinions on this, some will tell you that we really can’t refer out. But I truly believe that we need to use our strengths and really work with people who are a good match for us. It has to go both ways. I mean, even if I would love to work with a client, if they decide I’m not the right fit, then absolutely, I want them to go out and choose someone who’s going to be a better fit for them. So I think one of the systems from the very beginning, even before a client contacts us, is to have a way to figure out what to do with new client inquiries. That’s from, it’s everything from where you put your information out online and, in the world, how clients funnel in to being able to contact you and what ways they can do that, what your system is for responding to inquiries and also if you don’t have any openings right now. Or if you’re very specific about I only take this insurance or I don’t take insurance, or I’m only available this time. So really having a way to, I don’t mean weed people out, but a way to really narrow your funnel down so that only the ideal clients who fit into what you’re able to provide are the ones contacting you. So that would be, that’s an example of a system. [JOE] When you think about what people could do on their website or in regards to phone inquiries or automatic scheduling, what are some simple hacks that people can do that maybe they wouldn’t think of right away in regards to specifically the right people reaching out to you? [LIZ] Well, it’s really funny. I hate talking on the phone. There’s a lot of pieces of being a receptionist I think I would be really good at but if I were to have to be the one to make phone calls and to answer the phones, it just makes me really anxious. So if anyone is with me, and I think a lot of highly sensitive people feel the same way, I don’t want to speak for everyone of, first of all, limiting who you share your phone number with, maybe there isn’t an option. Maybe it’s only that people are able to contact you either via email or an online form, and that you don’t even put your phone number out there unless it’s to clients who you’re already established with. Another idea is to make it really clear on your website and everywhere else, like ahead of time that these are basically to let people know about some of your policies so that people can weed themselves out, if that makes sense. So making it really clear that these are the people that you serve, this is the availability you have, this is the insurance that you’re on or not on and tf there are things that people would be able to like self-select out, then most likely they wouldn’t contact you. [BRIGHTER VISION] When you’re in private practice, it can be tough to find the time to even review your marketing efforts, let alone to make improvements where needed. Whether you are a seasoned clinician with an existing website in need of a refresh or a new therapist, building a website for the first time, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution. By first understanding your practice and what makes it unique, Brighter Vision’s team of developers are then able to create you a beautiful website that will attract your ideal clients and get them to contact you. Better yet, they also provide unlimited tech support to make sure it’s always up to date and professional Search Engine Optimization to make sure you rank high in online searches all at no additional cost. But best of all, we’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for Practice of the Practice listeners. Get your first three months of website service completely free. To take advantage of this amazing deal, head on over to brightervision.com/joe. Again, that’s brightervision.com/joe. [JOE SANOK] What do you say when people make the argument, well, I don’t want people to not want to reach out to me? Why would you say it’s smart to limit the type of people that end up contacting for an intake? [LIZ] So I can only speak for myself and for the therapist that I’ve worked with the past couple years through the pandemic, but I know that I was getting so many more inquiries than I could even handle and having people reach out. And I think that this is a common thing that we’ve heard from a lot of, not only therapists, but people in our personal lives is the one of the worst things I think that that is so, it can be really hard for us as therapists and for clients is to reach out to someone and to not hear back. So this system actually sets up therapists and clients for more success because if you as a therapist are getting many, many inquiries, most likely you are already full or close to being of capacity for who you can take on. Then there’s the stress of, “Oh my God, so many people are emailing me, I don’t know, or calling me. I don’t have the time to be able to get back to them. I don’t have the energy. Okay, I’ll do it tomorrow.” Then you push it off and push it off and so it’s overwhelmed for the therapist who doesn’t have space in their schedule to take on a new client. But then also the guilt about, “Oh wow, I never got back to that person.” Then for a potential client who maybe you’re the first person they’ve reached out to, they’re thinking, “Wow, this actually, I don’t know if this feels right for me because I’m not even getting a call back from a potential therapist.” So I think by setting up our systems to really benefit us, it gets rid of all of the muck all of the additional admin tasks and really, again, I know I keep saying setting us up for success, but it allows us to only be talking to our ideal clients instead of having to spend a lot of time and energy letting people know that we can’t take them for a variety of reasons. [JOE] What other systems help keep people organized? [LIZ] I think having a system for onboarding, so once you’ve actually figured out if you’re going to work with a client, then that starts the process of, okay, how do I get the paperwork to them? When do I need the paperwork completed? Am I using an electronic health record or is it paper? Although a lot of people I think who are seeing clients virtually probably have to have some type of way to collect information electronically. But what do you do with that information? What do you talk about in the actual intake session and how do you document that? So there’s a lot of different pieces and I like to think of it as the before, during, and after when you think about the onboarding system. [JOE] Yes, take us through that before, during, and after. [LIZ] Yes, so definitely the before is having all your paperwork in place, having a, maybe it is a email or something in your electronic health record that is basically typed out of all the instructions for your client so you’re not having to repeat it over and over and over, but you basically, it’s like a copy paste thing of letting the client know, “Hey, client please fill out this paperwork by X date. Here’s what I’m going to need from you before the session. I’m just confirming the place and the time.” If you’re meeting online, you can let them know how to connect with you online if you’re meeting in person, giving them directions to your office. I once worked in an office that was like a complete maze. So giving them very clear directions like take a left here and go up these stairs. That’s the before is like getting everything in place to then have the client be able to just come in and all you have to do is just briefly go over the paperwork that they sign and go through the questions that you already have and give time for the client to ask their questions. I know that for me, sometimes having a new client intake, even though I’ve done them hundreds of times, there can still be some anxiety with that. I do have a checklist that I use and basically, it’s just a little one-pager that goes through making sure that I have all the demographic information that I’ve started to do before I met with the client. Then it’s a reminder to go through, okay, let me make sure that I have their credit card on file. Let’s make sure I have their insurance if I’m taking it. Let’s talk about like, these are the things I want to highlight from the paperwork to make sure that we, even though they signed them and they should have read them, I want to make sure that we’re going over privacy and late cancellation policy, et cetera. That I would say is the during, so the couple things that we do during, and then the questions that I ask the client and I let them know that usually like the first couple sessions feel a little bit more like Q&A interview style. And if my client has any questions for me or if there’s something that they I haven’t asked and they want to share about, we absolutely can. I let them know that after the session the second into the third session, it’s a lot more conversational and much more guided by my client. But I do try to let them know up front that the first session or two may feel a little bit different because it’s more of the rapport building, information gathering phase. [JOE] Where would you say most therapists screw things up? They hear this, they’re like, yes, I should do it. Are there areas that you just see are blind spots for most therapists like when they start, they hear an episode like this that like, hey, here’s a warning. Are there specific areas that you just see people keep going back to even though that maybe they’re like, they know better? [LIZ] I think, so documentation is a whole beast of its own, but I think in terms of documenting the intake session people we as therapists are taught some mixed messages in grad school, in our jobs. I don’t want to speak for everyone out there, so I’m just going to limit this to people I’ve worked with in my own experience is that on the one hand you’re told if you don’t document it didn’t happen. So there’s I think some fear in that of, oh my gosh, okay, then that means I need to document every single thing that happens. We as therapists have a tendency to overcompensate and to put in more because of the worry of, oh my gosh, am I going to get audited, the police going to, the police is going to come and get me. Am I going to get is insurance going to not pay me? There’s a lot of fear and I think we as therapists tend to overthink the note-taking and the documentation process. So what I would say, especially with the intake piece of it, is to take a step back for a minute and think about what are the necessary pieces of information that you need from your client. One of them is including if you have to diagnose, making sure that you have enough information to be able to give a preliminary diagnosis at least. For me, and I’m sure there are other therapists that do this differently, is I’m not spending hours and hours writing up a full report after the intake. I actually have a intake note that I use pretty much the same note for every client because if I were to go in and not do my first note because I needed to put everything about the intake session, like the whole assessment in that would just delay everything. So what I do is I have a really standard short intake note that basically says, this is what we did, this is what we reviewed. Then after I do that note and sign it’s like, huh, that’s off my checklist. I had my first session, I do this quick little intake note, and then it’s see assessment and then you can put the assessment in later only in the information that you think is vital to put in their file. [JOE] Now what are a couple other ways that people can stay organized with running their practice? [LIZ] Definitely money management. I know that a lot of therapists have fear of money and organization and looking at our bank statements. I think just having a system, whatever it is, whether it is hiring a bookkeeper or if it is using a spreadsheet or if it is linking your bank account to QuickBooks or Quickin or Wave or one of those, whatever it is, is finding a system and then sticking to it. Because what I see, and I think a blind spot is that sometimes people start with one thing and they’re like, “Oh, this isn’t working, let me try another thing.” Then soon enough you have basically nothing. So you start with even like a to-do list, for example is, “Oh, let me start a to-do list here on a sticky note. No, let me do it on my phone. No, I’m going to do it in this notebook.” Suddenly you have 5,000 lists and you’re not moving anywhere, you’re stuck. That would be one thing to at least try it out for a couple weeks, a couple months, and then if it’s not working, figure out, huh, what is it that I need to do differently? In some cases, that’s completely scrapping your system and starting over. But I think there’s a lot of times when all it needs is a little tweak. That’s what I love to do is come in and say, oh, let’s actually, let’s take what you have already because we’ve put a lot of time and work into it and let’s just look at this from a different perspective and what are small changes that maybe you need to do so that we’re not reinventing the wheel, but that you’re able to take what works for you and actually make it work. [JOE] Yes. I know you do these VIP days, I’d love to hear what those look like, but then also how people could create their own VIP days for themselves. [LIZ] I love this question that you ask about how to create it for themselves. I’ll definitely come back to that one. Something that I’ve started doing in my business is VIP days and how it’s structured currently is we meet for an hour and do a planning session because every VIP day is going to look different depending on who you are, what your needs are, what your business looks like. What we do is, I’m really, really visual so we basically take a snapshot of your business and look at where are the holes, what is the biggest pain points for you, and where are you wasting the most time, money and or energy. So then together we come up with a goal of, okay, during our VIP day? We’re going to have three hours together. This is the one system that we are either going to create or fix. Then I give my client a Google Doc that’s shared between the two of us and basically just time for a brain dump so they can get everything out of their brain. Together I’m able to help them make sense of some of that. Then during the actual VIP dates, three hours together, which I think a lot of people have a reaction right away of like, ooh, three hours, ah, that’s a lot. Yes, it is a lot. However, a piece of what I like to do is not only have we already come up together with what our goal is, so we both know going into it and also what they can prepare for it, but there’s also lots of breaks in there. I really encourage people to be comfortable and it’s not just going to, it’s not like a three-hour intensive therapy session. This is really a coaching/consulting session where we’re having fun, we’re sharing screens, we’re chitchatting and we’re getting stuff done together. So we get that system done and whatever it may be. So maybe it is looking at someone’s schedule and actually coming up with not only what they want their schedule to look like, but a step-by-step plan of implementing the schedule changes. Because sometimes it’s not as easy as saying, “Well, I don’t want to work Mondays anymore.” I mean, that’s great if you don’t want to work Mondays, but it has to sometimes because it impacts more than just us, it impacts our clients and other people and things too. It sometimes is a slower process to get everything fully in place. So together we have that VIP day and then a couple weeks later we do a follow up session just to check in, make any tweaks or changes. Really, I’ve done it both ways. I’ve done the sprint, the short-term VIP days, and I’ve also done longer term work with people and I think sometimes with the three or six months together it can definitely be helpful and I really love pieces of it, but sometimes we lose momentum. So sometimes having this energy together of like okay, this is this one goal that we have, and to actually sit down together and do it and get it done and feel really good and get momentum to then start doing other things in our business, that can be huge and really save hours of work each week. [JOE] What are a couple tips for people that do want to just do it on their own, that they’re like, I want to create a VIP day for myself. What would be maybe three questions or activities that you’d want them to go through during that time? [LIZ] I think the first thing to think of is what is going to hold them accountable? Anyone can create a system. Anyone can edit a system. Anyone can do a VIP day. So I don’t think it’s lack of the knowledge or ability, but I think sometimes it’s getting the momentum and the motivation to actually do it. So thinking about even doing something like a VIP day for yourself, I think the first step is, okay, great, I have this idea, I want to do it, but what is it that is going to get me to actually do it? For some people it is really the pain points, the thinking of, wow, like I am so stressed out, I’m so overwhelmed, I’m wasting so much time. For other people it’s thinking more about the transformation of, okay. I’m ready to see fewer clients a week, I’m ready to stop spinning my wheels and be 50 notes behind every week and having a huge backlog. So when I say that that motivation, accountability piece maybe that means having your business besty and doing a day together. That’s one thing. I would also say, going to what I was just saying a minute ago of thinking of one thing that is causing you the most distress. Sure, there are probably multiple pieces of your business that could use a little makeover. I think that’s true for any one of us, but think about the thing that is just causing you the most distress. Maybe think about it this way, if there was one thing, the miracle question, like if there was one thing that could be taken off your plate that you didn’t have to worry about anymore that had a system, what would it be and just sitting and reflecting on, huh, what would that be? Now I will say unfortunately it can’t be billing and it can’t be documentation, we have to do those, but we can’t. You can delegate billing, you can’t really delegate doing your notes, but I think in terms of what is causing you the most stress, what’s taking you the most amount of time and what would be so nice to know, huh, I have a system for this, even if I hate bookkeeping, even if just the thought of it. But knowing that every Friday from 12: to 1230, I go and I do it and then I don’t have to worry about it for the rest of the week, or maybe it’s once a month that you do it. So that would be, yes, those are a couple pieces, just a couple of ideas of of doing your own VIP day. I think the final piece of that scheduling it and structuring it to what works for you. If the thought of sitting down for three hours and doing something is so overwhelming. Okay, maybe just carve out an hour, 90 minutes. If you are not a morning person like me, then don’t do it at 7:00 AM. That’s clearly not going to work for anyone. think about when do you thrive, what time, what day? Do you maybe need to go to a spa or a hotel or a friend’s house or a coffee shop or wherever it is, maybe getting out of your own environment and go somewhere where you are actually able to turn off all the distractions and actually get stuff done. [JOE] So awesome. Liz, the last question I ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [LIZ] Be compassionate to yourself. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself credit for the amazing things that you have done and achieved. Make sure that you have your community of people who are rooting for you, of people who are going to remind you that you are a rockstar and that you are an amazing therapist and business owner, and that you also don’t have to be in it alone. [JOE] So, awesome. Liz, if people want to work with you, if they want to connect with you, follow your work, what should they do? Where should they go? [LIZ] Yes, we’ll definitely join us in the Facebook group. We are strong and mighty and growing every day. That group is called Organize and Thrive. Then you can also go to my website, it’s organized-and-drive.com and find out more about me and what I offer. [JOE] Ah, so awesome. Well, Liz, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast today. [LIZ] Thank you so much. Thank you to all the listeners. [JOE] So go get organized, take some action, get things done, learn from other people, have some accountability. So many great tips from today’s show. If you are looking for a deeper community, we are meeting up together for Killing It Camp. That’s going to be in Cancun, Mexico at the Club Med, kicking off October 20th, 2022. We have negotiated an unbelievable deal at this all-inclusive. It’s going to include all of your housing and your hotel stay and food. It’s less than $200 a night there. You can pick up your ticket right now. The early bird tickets are only $197. Head on over to killingitcamp.com and grab your ticket. They’re going fast. It is limited as to how many rooms we are able to save. So if you want the room deals, if you want to come to Killin’It Camp 2022 in Cancun, Mexico at the Club Med please join us. That’s over at killingitcamp.com. We could not do this show without our amazing sponsors. Brighter Vision has been with us almost since the beginning. They’re the best way to get a website going for yourself for a low monthly fee for $59 a month. You’ll get some free months as well when you sign up using the promo code [JOE] at checkout. Head over to brightervision.com/joe to get that deal. So you’re going to get all sorts of things. You’re going to get your hosting, your website design, you’re going to get some awesome just content. It’s the way to go. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain, and I hope to see you in Cancun in October. Bye. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.