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Hi, and welcome to the Grow a Group Practice podcast. I am Alison Pidgeon your host. Today, I have an interview with Katie May. You may have heard her name before. She has created a consulting business in addition to her group practice called Become a Group Guru where she teaches other therapists, how to fill therapy groups. She also has a private practice that’s very niche called Creative Healing Philly. They really focus on adolescents and providing DBT treatment, and we cover a lot of ground in this interview. So I ask her about purchasing some of her office buildings, I ask her about marketing her group practice, we talk all things business related to all the different things that she has going on. So I really enjoy this interview. Katie is such a delight to talk to, and I think you’re going to learn a lot of new things from listening to this interview, no matter what topic you’re interested in.
[ALISON]: Katie, Hey. Welcome to the podcast. I’m so glad you’re here.
[KATIE]: Hey, I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
[ALISON]: I’ve been so interested to see your growth over the years with your group practice and I was hoping to touch on that today, but maybe we could just start out with you giving us a little bit of an introduction about your group practice and who you’re focused on, how many clinicians you have. That would be perfect.
[KATIE]: Absolutely. So I own a group practice in the greater Philadelphia area called Creative Healing. Right now we have three locations, I say right now as if my intention is to grow. So perhaps it is, but we have three locations Flourtown, King of Prussia and Philadelphia, and I have 16 clinicians and I’m looking to add at this point. Our specialty really is adolescents and I call it a teen support center and we have a niche focus in DBT, OCD and trauma related work, as well as support a large LGBTQ population.
[ALISON]: Yeah, that’s amazing. And when did you start the group practice?
[KATIE]: So I started the group practice in 2017. I was solo. I had actually never really thought about or intended on becoming a group. The idea of managing other people felt challenging to me and sometimes it still is, but I was getting so many referrals and because of my DBT training there was just, there weren’t a lot of other options for teen specialty DBT in our area. And it hurt my heart to think about referring them out to the practitioner down the street who does everything and so it just became more of like a heart-centered mission to bring more therapists in that could do that work. Yeah,
[ALISON]: That’s so great because I think that so many times, as therapists, it has to be the thing that gets you up in the morning, right? Like the whole reason we became clinicians is because we want to help people and obviously we want to have successful businesses that are profitable too, but I think you can have both and it’s definitely a win-win
[KATIE]: I think absolutely. I mean, for as hard as it is, some days there has to be a why behind that, right? Like there has to be a passion to keep you going.
[ALISON]: Right. Exactly. So that’s a lot of growth in a relatively short period of time and I’m sure there’s probably a much longer story to this than we could really get into today. But what do you think are some of those things that really stick out in your mind that contributed to you growing so quickly?
[KATIE]: Yes, I would agree, there’s probably a lot of things and many of them like waking up at 7:00 AM and going to bed at midnight and not stopping thinking about growing my practice and making a bigger impact. But I would say some concrete things that contributed were having a niche really specializing in high risk because their urgency to get new clients on the schedule, there is no waiting period. There is no pushing it off until tomorrow when it’s life or death. And then in addition to that, having a really good social media presence, one of the ways I invested heavily in my time and my finances in terms of marketing was really being present on social media, educating parents in our community, making connections with schools and doing free workshops and living within my value of giving back and making sure that our community knew who we were, had education on suicide awareness, and different ideas that are really important to the work that we do. Because I feel like if we don’t let people know that help is available, they don’t know that help is available.
[ALISON]: Exactly. Yeah, and I’m curious about the social media platforms that you chose. Obviously it was probably very intentional what you chose because of your ideal population. So can you talk a little bit more about that?
[KATIE]: Yeah. So for the first, I would say two and a half years, it was only Facebook and there were several reasons for that. One is that I’m a Facebook girl. I love being on Facebook and because I knew that our target market was really parents of teens, especially because the teens are not the decision-maker in finding and securing and paying for their own therapy. And so, we found that the market for putting our message out there was on Facebook. In the last six months, maybe I’ve also migrated to Instagram and shared some of our message there as well. And that’s just because of the nature of growing and scaling and also having more support in terms of scheduling and posting for me on social media. So it’s not just me doing it all behind-the-scenes at this point. So we can, now we have a Twitter, like we do all. We have a YouTube page, but my main focus is still just the Facebook page because that’s where I am a lot.
[ALISON]: Nice. So I know you’ve created, I think you’ve created courses around teaching therapists, how to make their own Facebook ads. Is that right?
[KATIE]: Correct. So I teach social media and sales and Facebook ads in my Failure Group Past Workshop.
[ALISON]: Oh, nice. Can you tell us what the name of that is?
[KATIE]: So the name is the Failure Group Past Workshop, and it’s a six week workshop that helps therapists identify a group that really resonates with them and their mission and helps them market it in the world to fill it so that, you know, the hardest part of a group for a lot of people is getting enough people in the room to start that group. And so that was where the workshop is so helpful in getting everyone together and getting the group started and then having them take it from there.
[ALISON]: Nice. I use Facebook ads in my own practice and I’ve always found them to be really valuable in converting clients. And I know when I talk to other practice owners about that, they’re usually like surprised. So I guess it sounds like you and I are both advocates of using Facebook ads.
[KATIE]: Yeah. I think you have to have the right mindset for it. I think that there’s a fear sometimes about spending money to make money. And that’s always been a big part of my practice and my belief is that when we invest in it, it comes back to us. And so, you know, I’m fully private pay. My practices as well and we don’t really have issues with getting new clients, but we’re investing a lot in getting those clients as well.
[ALISON]: Do you have any other advice for people who are starting or have a ready totally self-pay group practice in terms of the marketing? Because what I found is that, and I don’t know if you know this because you may not have ever had an insurance-based practice, but the marketing is quite different in terms of how you go about doing it and that type of thing. So any suggestions about that?
[KATIE]: So I don’t know anything about marketing and insurance-based practice, so I would agree. I mean, my main suggestions are having a clear niche. For us, having specialties has been really huge and being able to position as the expert, as well as invest in the marketing that allows you to do so, having a good website, a good brand presence really like representing yourself as a practice that is worth that investment. So I think that that’s on both sides. It’s investing in your marketing and investing in your brand presence so others see you as worthy of the price tag that they’re paying for your services. And I guess I would add to that ,investing in your training to the level of being able to command higher prices, because I think that’s important as well.
[ALISON]: Yeah, and I think you do such a nice job. I follow you on social media, which is why I know all these things about you. I think you do a really nice job too, of like the whole, all the pieces sort of come together. Like you said, it’s like all branded around working with teenagers and even the way your office looks is very appealing to a teenager. It’s like a fun, colorful, welcoming space. And so I think that you’ve obviously put a lot of intention and thought behind what is that whole experience like for the clients and so I think that’s also a really important piece if you’re going to be all self-pay is you really need to have all of the pieces, all of the elements of their treatment really be very solid and put together.
[KATIE]: Absolutely. I would agree with everything that you said and I would add that I don’t know if it’s as intentional as it seems. I think it’s a natural extension of who I am and like the inner team that I think I embody every day anyway. And so maybe some of it is just like tapping into your authenticity of what lights you up, what’s important to you and how do you express that in your brand and your positioning. And that makes it easier than it makes it difficult. It’s not so much a checklist as a natural extension of why it matters to you.
[ALISON]: That’s cool. So it’s really like an expression of your creative side or how you are personally, how the space is decorated.
[KATIE]: I think so, which also leads into the team that I’ve built is really those that align with my values and my passions and the creative modalities that we provide.
[ALISON]: That’s great. Do you have any advice about hiring the right people? I think that’s something that practice owners struggle so much with, especially in the beginning, making sure they’re hiring people who are a fit for their culture and their values. Like, is that something that you were pretty clear on from the beginning or was that something that you realized along the way, and you sort of had to pivot to make sure that you were hiring the right people?
[KATIE]: So, my equivalent of this is like the no running at the pole sign that obviously came about because someone ran at the pool and got hurt. It’s that most of what I’ve learned about hiring and building a team has come from what hasn’t worked in hiring and building a team. And so now my process is really intentional. I would say the first two years it was both reactive. We need more people because we need to meet the demand and it was bring a friend, bring your friend on board because if you want to be here, do they want to be here? And sometimes that worked and sometimes it didn’t work. So now my process is I really have a three-step interview process and step one is that I meet with a new candidate and I really get a vibe for, do they need our value system? Are they someone who could be a good contributor to our team culture?
Because if they can’t pass that, if they’re going to create drama, if they’re going to row the boat in the opposite direction of the whole team, they’re not going to be a good match for our team. And then if they pass that step, I’m giving them a case conceptualization to write answers to questions and tell me what they think, what interventions would they do, we’re, like I said, DBT-based. And so I want to make sure somebody can handle risks. Somebody can handle the level of risk of the clients that we see. And so they’re submitting that prior to a second interview and then interview number two, I’m bringing on a team member with me, one of my leadership team employees, and we’re together, role-playing with a candidate. We’re seeing their style. We’re seeing how they handle different, we’ve compiled a list of all of the challenging things that happen in our sessions and then we throw them at our candidates that we’re screening to see how they would handle them.
And sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes we role play and they’re like, “Oh, I did not like the way that played out, but here’s what I would like to do. Here’s what I learned from doing that with you in real time.” And so it’s not about getting all the answers right. It’s about what is your clinical judgment and intuition and how do you really show up with both vulnerability and willingness to learn as a part of our team? So that’s a really long answer to say, like “I’ve learned to screen heavily because it’s a competitive market and we’re a highly trained team and I do expect excellence for my team and I want to see that in the people that apply for our, team as well.”
[ALISON]: I’m glad that you described the whole process because I think having a multiple step process is so important, especially, I have done the same over the years. I have gotten a much more lengthy hiring process because that helps me to really see who is going to be a good fit and who’s not. But I think just making sure that the person really wants to be there, right? Like if you’re not really wanting the job, you’re probably not going to show up to the second interview. You know what I mean?
[KATIE]: Right. It’s hard, but it’s designed to be hard because the job is hard. And so I want you to step up to the plate for sure.
[ALISON]: Right. So I know a big part of the therapy that you do in your own group practice is running therapy groups, correct? And you’ve designed a lot of materials and online courses for other therapists to teach them how to sort of the business side of running groups. Is that right?
[KATIE]: Yes. Correct. It’s the marketing and business side and yeah.
[ALISON]: So and it’s called Become a Group Guru and I’ve heard lots of good things from other consulting clients who’ve taken your course who said like, “Oh, it was so helpful to fill up my groups.” And I just think that’s great because groups can be so great in terms of helping people get services who may not be able to afford the individual fee and also can actually be more lucrative on the business side of things too. So can you talk a little bit about the groups that you do and kind of how you see that from like the business side of things?
[KATIE]: Absolutely. So we have 15 groups that run at my center right now and that fluctuates seasonally, but the groups that we provide are DBT groups, teen talk groups, we have a social anxiety group, we have a parenting group, we have an LGBTQ group, multiples of each of them. And there may be one or two that I’m missing. We’re in the works of a self-compassion group and OCD exposure-based group. So there’s a lot of things that we run. And so one of the things that I love about groups is that when I’m hiring a new person, it’s a way to help market them and help them make a big splash. So, it’s the opposite of just saying I’m now accepting new clients, which is very vanilla when we’re trying to market a new therapist. It’s saying like, “Hey, Taylor is running this teen talk group for teenagers who really are feeling depressed and down and withdrawn and isolated and need a space to connect and feel like they have a place to belong.”
And so using that as a marketing grab can really help us make a bigger impact and call more people in at once than just saying like our doors are open, come see us. And it allows us to talk about our different specialty areas in a way that gets more attention and shows more people who we are. I will add something else that I’ve done recently, as it relates to groups is that I run a free monthly parent workshop that is considered almost like orientation for all of our new clients, parents to help them get that foundation and like, “What do I need to know to help create the perfect conditions or perfect environment for my team to be successful in therapy?” And it’s gotten such amazing reviews in the sense of parents feeling like they’re wrapped in support. It’s such an added value and yes, it’s 90 minutes once a month that I’m taking out of a Sunday, but each time I run it, we’re getting so many more group members and so many more clients.
So I think it’s these like multiple ways that groups can be helpful in terms of our marketing and filling our caseloads is that yes, the groups three X the income that you might get for an individual hour. So that’s good for business. And then providing the group provides the space for connection and gives clients like ownership of the space in a different way. They feel even more connected to it and so that social connection piece retains them as a client longer than individual alone, many times. And so, as a business owner, I love groups as a therapist, I love groups, and as a human, I love groups because they give you that group buzz, that sense of connection to other people that’s so needed I think now more than ever.
[ALISON]: That’s great. And do you find that people become new clients because they initially entered to join a group or they initially enter for individual therapy and then they join a group or how does that process usually work?
[KATIE]: It is both. And that’s one of the new areas that I’m tracking this year with my intake people. It is internal referrals in which way it goes more because it’s something that I haven’t tracked as closely as I would like. But I would say there’s a subset of clients that start as just group members and they either then transition to one of our individual therapists from somewhere else to get a comprehensive DBT program, or they’ve just been in group and they are like, “Oh, I actually have more support that I need than just the group space can provide.” And so they add on individual therapy. And then the other way, there’s the subset of clients who start an individual and our therapist recognize, “Oh, you need more support than individual can provide, or you need skills in addition to therapy.” And so they’re making the referral then to group therapy internally. And that’s something that I’ve trained all of my team members on. It’s how do we gain that group commitment when someone’s come in for individual? How do we connect their treatment goals to the goals of also being in group? Because what we know is they can reach their goals more quickly with more peer support and accountability when they also have a group in the mix.
[ALISON]: Yeah, that’s great. Very cool. It sounds like it’s perfect for teens, especially because they’re probably used to being in groups anyway from going to school and they of course are very into that socialization at that age as well.
[KATIE]: Yes. Developmentally, it’s an ideal age for groups, absolutely.
[ALISON]: Well, I was hoping to switch gears a little bit because I know that you recently purchased an office building and you also own another one of your locations. So I love real estate. I purchased my own office building back in 2018 and I’m so happy that I made that decision. So I’m curious to hear kind of like what your decision making process was around that in terms of, obviously you could have just kept renting. Like what made you decide to buy the properties?
[KATIE]: So, there are a few reasons that I really decided to go into owning my own properties versus renting them. I would say that to some extent it’s in my blood. My dad flips houses and owns apartment complexes, and it’s just been like a natural, I guess, value system of my family is that owning property is building wealth and that we don’t build wealth with just money in the bank, but we invest IT and that helps us to grow. so that’s always been in the back of my mind. It was not on my radar at the time I bought my first building until I realized how profitable my first couple of years were and recognized that I wanted to invest in something to really maximize my profitability and my tax liability and all of those things and just make it worth my while.
So buying my first building was kind of a no brainer. I was in an, I’m in a condo association and there was a unit for sale that was just across the parking lot of where I was renting. And it was double the size and the mortgage would be half the rent. And so that, for me just felt like a no brainer. The second building that I just closed on maybe a month or two ago was, I think I purchased before I was ready to purchase again, but I fell in love with the building. I had a short term lease in Center City, Philadelphia that I knew, it’s not up for another 18 months, but the building was just, it’s beautiful. It’s in an old chocolate factory. So it’s like a historic building with a lot of exposed brick and I just like walked in and it felt like something that I needed to create a teen space in. There’s a workshop space and things like that. And I guess the final thought I have around why I would invest is like I have a son and I feel like investing is investing in his future, assets that eventually will become his and leaving him with something that will set him up for future success, which is on my mind.
[ALISON]: That’s amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of what your process was with actually like looking at spaces, deciding what to buy? How did you do the financing? Because I always get lots of questions from practice owners about that.
[KATIE]: So, in terms of looking at spaces, I’m a quick start. So when I got married, I tried on one wedding dress and I bought it. Similarly with buildings, each time I walked into a space I was like, “Yep, this is what I want.” And I bought it. So there wasn’t really like a long drawn out looking process. I know what I like and when I like it, I go for it. The first time I did a 504 SBA loan and it was tough. Paperwork is the death of me and so filling out forms and paperwork was just really challenging. I leaned on my husband for support the first time and bought the building on my own with my own investment the first time. And there was just a lot of, I can’t say it enough, like a lot of paperwork, and you interviews and proving finances and things like that.
The second time around, it was easier because I went with a local bank both times. So local to Philadelphia, small family owned bank, and they were really helpful and supportive in the process. And so I reached out to my rep and I said, “I’m looking at another building. What can we do?” And she’s like, we already have all your stuff in the system. This is going to be way easier.” So it was an SBA loan, but it wasn’t a 504 loan. And that’s like my extent of the knowledge of what that means. My second building, I invested with my husband and I said, ‘You’re going to do all the paperwork. You’re going to do all of the renovations, project management and I’ll run the business in it and then together we’ll benefit from this investment.”
And so that really works and placed each of our unique strengths in terms of what we do and what we like to do, because I knew that I didn’t have the energy to do, the renovations the first time around and managing all the deadlines and things like that. It was very stressful. And I didn’t want to do that part again. And so I knew what I wanted and I kind of looked at like, who versus like, how do I do this all on my own. The who was my husband, my partner in life and projects. And so it was really nice to have his support more fully this time.
[ALISON]: That sounds like a great setup because I know when I bought my building, we totally gutted the inside and everything, all the walls, everything is brand new and it was a very much an emotional roller coaster.
[KATIE]: Yes.
[ALISON]: Yes. So this time, if I buy something else, I’m going to make sure it’s pretty much ready to go, so I don’t have to go through that again.
[KATIE]: Well, and that’s the difference. The first time we did knock everything down and rebuild, and this one is like I said, a historic building. And so we’re really using the bones of what’s in there and just making some cosmetic updates, which is nice. It’s less intensive than the last one, for sure.
[ALISON]: Right. Is it intimidating at all to think about the fact that you’re now the landlord and so if something breaks or goes wrong, you have to be the one to figure it out?
[KATIE]: Not really because I defer to my husband for those kinds of things. So I would say in the past, I’ve been a landlord in a building where someone else subleased from me and that felt really stressful because I’m going to be honest. I didn’t care about the space. I wasn’t working in it. I wasn’t present there and so it felt like an extra burden. But I think when you’re an owner operator and you’re either, or at least for me when I’m in the space and I’m working in there every day, or even though we’re not right now, we’re telehealth, but when we’re usually working in every day, I care about the space. I want things to work. I want it to look nice. And so it doesn’t feel as hard because it’s a part of my day-to-day experience.
[ALISON]: And I found that a lot of those things I can have my assistant do. She had to get estimates because we had to put a new roof on and I was like, “Call three places and get these estimates.” And then she did, and then I just looked over them, took five minutes and decided who I wanted to go with. So I feel like there’s a way to delegate a lot of that out too, so it’s not as overwhelming.
[KATIE]: I would agree. That’s what we’re having my assistant do now with like soundproofing and things like that. And then, yeah, so getting support is pivotal, I think, in the process.
[ALISON]: Right. Is there anything, when you were looking at spaces that you felt like was really important to have or something that you knew you would need to add to make it work for a therapy space? I know you just mentioned soundproofing.
[KATIE]: Soundproofing was important. The only thing that otherwise that I looked for was spaces that were big enough to run groups in. So when I did my first space and we knocked everything down, my dad who’s construction crew did the renovations for me was like, “We could put X amount of offices in here.” And I was like, “No, I want six offices and I want each of them big enough to run an eight to 10 person group.” And so while they could have been smaller offices and maybe more therapists and more income for me, it was important to have those spaces to run our groups. So other than that, no, I would say privacy, soundproofing, a natural flow, space for a waiting room. All the things that therapists would think about anyway. I don’t think there’s anything extra that I had to add in other than group spaces.
[ALISON]: Right. Nice. So I know you have a lot of different things going on and you have your practice and you have the Become a Group Guru. I know you just started a podcast. Is that right? Can you tell us about that?
[KATIE]: Yeah, so I started a podcast where I’m interviewing other mental health therapists to find out what happens in the place where their groups take place. And this was really a natural extension of Become a Group Guru, my consulting business, where I teach about marketing and filling groups. And I can talk about the kind of groups that I run, but I’m not an expert in all kinds of groups. And so I really went into this space recently where I wanted to know, I wanted to be inspired by other therapists who were doing awesome things. And one of my 2021 goals is really to share the wealth, share the spotlight, share everything that, I’m kind of trying to decenter myself as the only group expert in this space, because there’s so many amazing people who are doing amazing things and I want to let them shine and share about what they’re doing to inspire other therapists too.
[ALISON]: Nice. So where can folks find the podcast?
[KATIE]: So, if you go to my website, becomeagroupguru.com, you can find it at the podcast tab. It’s also on Spotify and Apple podcasts and it’s called Group Work, because it makes me think about high school when teens say like, “Oh God, I hate group work.” But we’re going to love group work because we’re going to talk all about groups and how they work for us.
[ALISON]: Nice. That’s awesome. Do you enjoy the podcasting avenues so far?
[KATIE]: I do. I’ve done maybe five of them with me as the interviewer. And I’m finding that it’s a lot like having a therapy session really. Like you’re just interviewing and asking questions and it’s, I mean, I love connecting with people and so it’s just felt really natural.
[ALISON]: Nice. It seems like talking comes easily to you. So I imagine it’s probably just fun, right?
[KATIE]: Talking comes way too easily for me [crosstalk].
[ALISON]: Katie, I so appreciate your time today. I know you and I both have to run off to meetings, but I was hoping you could share with our listeners how they can get ahold of you if they’re interested in checking out any of your stuff.
[KATIE]: Absolutely. So you can find me at becomeagroupguru.com and once you’re there, you can find the tab for my podcast and also my community of 6,000 plus other therapists who are bracketing, filling, and running groups and private practice. There’s a lot of great community and support and inspiration there. So I would love to connect with more therapists who this is a part of what they’re offering as well.
[ALISON]: Thank you so much, Katie.
[KATIE]: Thank you.
[ALISON]: Thank you again to Katie. She is such a fun, warm person to talk to. And I know she’s very busy and the fact that she took time out of her schedule to talk to us was great. So hope you enjoyed that interview. I know I did and I will see you all next time.
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