[JOE]:
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[LATOYA]:
This is the Practice of the Practice podcast takeover episode with LaToya Smith, session number 511.

Welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. This is LaToya Smith with another podcast takeover. Today I have two special guests, Julianna Vermeys LPC out of Oregon, and Andrea Redeau, another LPC out of Oregon. So you both, welcome to the show.

[JULIANNA]:
Thank you.

[ANDREA]:
Thank you.

[LATOYA]:
Yeah, so um, Julianna, let’s start with you. I know, I guess we’ll be jumping back and forth. I may say each other’s names or you guys jump in where you feel. But let’s just start off by you guys, Julianna, you introduce yourself and just tell us about your practice and where you’re located.

[JULIANNA]:
Sure, okay. Yeah, I’m, I’m Julianna and I have a private practice, counseling and therapy in Portland, Oregon. And I’ve been practicing since 2006. Over several years, my practice really morphed into a trauma-oriented practice. I’ve done a ton of training in trauma and trauma-informed care, helping people with complex trauma, single incident traumas, anxiety, depression, the general difficulties that come with life after trauma, or in a lifetime of trauma. I’m super passionate about the neuroscience behind trauma and trauma-informed care. And from the perspective of anti-racist and anti-oppression work, I have really seen a lot of crossovers in terms of working with people in a trauma-informed way, providing us with a platform to be anti-oppression. It really is a practice of helping people break out of this literally the way their nervous system is oppressed in a trauma and PTSD.

So it’s made me very excited to see how empowering people to understand how their bodies and their minds, and their lives are formed to help them survive, and then move into a new way of being from that information and knowledge. So I also come to the practice from years of training in yoga and meditation. So I use a lot of that kind of practice in my work, which I also feel like helps people get ahead of what their nervous systems just sort of are automatically doing. So they learn a lot about themselves in the present. Yeah, so that’s, that’s kind of me from a practice standpoint.

[LATOYA]:
Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. And I know, we’ll get into more of that, because, you know, I had some conversations last week about with two other therapists that were doing trauma work. So I definitely have a lot of questions. I think there’s a lot of good work to be done there. So yeah, Andrea, tell us a little bit about you and your practice.

[ANDREA]:
So I started a practice in 2016 called Uniquely You Counseling. I started part-time, I was working at an agency, started part-time, and I really just wanted to see people who are in life transitions, people who are in between maybe school and work, loss of a relationship. And what ended up happening is I saw primarily black and brown clients who wanted a therapist who looked like them. And so within six months, my practice was full of black and brown individuals who had been searching for a therapist in the Portland area. And so right now, I see individuals and couples, primarily I work with bipoc individuals who are either transplants to Portland and trying to navigate what it is to be in a brown body in Portland and all the struggles and traumas that come with that as well as those in biracial partnerships and what I call combative couples. So couples who really struggle with arguing, fighting and oftentimes are too embarrassed to go to therapy. Those are my people.

[LATOYA]:
Wow, you guys really have some great you know, niches or key areas that you work in, it’s like, it’s exciting by itself like really amazing. But tell us a little bit about, cuz I just learnt, I knew you were in Oregon, I just didn’t know you were in Portland, but tell us about, there’s a lot going on in Portland in the last few months. So tell us about, you know, how things have been, individually, what you personally experienced or just in the community in general?

[JULIANNA]:
Sure.

[ANDREA]:
I think, so Portland, obviously, nationwide gets a little different rep than what Portland is. So I see Portland on the news. And I’m like, that is one tiny piece of Portland. That is not where I live, or Julianna lives, oftentimes. Um, but what I see mainly, and my clients and personally, what’s coming up is there is a racial awakening that’s happening in Portland and things that have not been discussed, or things that we have avoided, like gentrification or microaggressions that happen on a daily basis here., I personally, have been coming to terms with that experience, as well as my clients coming to terms with it. And so what I really see in my client caseload is people starting to look at their own experiences through a lens of trauma and racism, and wanting a place to talk about it. So that’s professionally but also personally, that’s, you know, what I’ve used my therapy time for recently is the interaction at a Walgreens or what it’s like to walk down town or to hold other people’s white guilt, what that feels like. So a part of it has been a personal journey for me, but also a professional journey and helping my clients walk through it.

[LATOYA]:
Wow, yes, good.

[JULIANNA]:
And for me, I guess I would, I would say that it’s Portland, maybe more than other areas well, so one, I’ll say that I live in a white body, an able body. And as a white woman and a white professional woman, what I am really seeing is that I can be a support for people who really see doing anti-racist work as not an option anymore. And that I think, is something that’s a flavor of what’s happening in Portland is a lot of people are realizing that it’s not really a choice anymore, white people, and I’ve even noticed that just on a neighborhood by neighborhood level, which has been so enlivening for me. I grew up in a multicultural, diverse area of Los Angeles and living in Portland has had its drawbacks, in a way for me and but in another way, I’m seeing that there’s this real opportunity for being a part of a progressive, kind of like, the whole key Portland weird thing is like, we’re gonna roll our own way. And Portland’s always been like that. But now to then be sort of the poster child for anti racist, anti-white supremacy work, I think is going to empower a lot of white people in this town to not just be allies or speak the speak, but actually do the hard work.

[LATOYA]:
Yes, that’s the part I love. And that’s the reason why, you know, I’m loving the opportunity to do this podcast takeover, so that we’re not just talking heads and saying, you know, wishful thinking, but we’re actually out here doing work and moving out. And I know that like, I think you both touched on it, like on the news, we see Portland, and it is just, you know, a lot of riots, you know, I mean, a lot, a lot of anger, a lot of taking a stance, but a lot of people using their voice. And, you know, I’m just looking at listening to things you both have said, but now really like using therapy space to a place to talk about what’s going on personally and professionally. But then also, like, it’s not a choice anymore, you have to do something like you don’t get to have the option of sitting back. Like when you see all this around you, you need to be taking action now.

[ANDREA]:
Yeah. And I also think that it’s created for clients for me, right that I have now the expectation, right? This is an expectation that if you are going to even work with me within my caseload, or be within my life, the expectation is that you’re doing the work, right. And that work looks different from everybody. I believe that there are phases to the work, but to be a part of my life professionally, or to be a part of my life personally, you know, you need to be doing that anti-racist work and have a bigger understanding and understand what makes me comfortable, what doesn’t make me comfortable, willing to have a dialogue. And honestly, that’s why Julianna and I, our partnership works is because, you know, she’s done this work, and she’s continuing to do the work and we get to have an open dialogue. And I get to say when things make me uncomfortable or things don’t make me uncomfortable. But I think that that’s really important part of this racial uprising and movement is that I want to be comfortable in my space and I need people who are willing to work with me getting comfortable. I’ve lived very uncomfortable for my life in Portland. And as an adult, I’m choosing not to do that anymore. I think it’s really empowering me, but also my clients as well.

[LATOYA]:
You know what I like what you’re saying, I want to offer what you just said, I want to ask you two both similar but you know, little different questions. So Andrea, what, what I hear you saying is, listen, I’m at a place now where I’m setting these boundaries. And if you want to be a part of my life, personally or professionally, you need to respect them and understand, these are conversations I want to have. And this is how I’m moving. So you get on the train, or you get off. Is that okay? So that’s personally, professionally, period?

[ANDREA]:
Yes.

[LATOYA]:
Okay. I like that. I like that.

[ANDREA]:
And I think it’s, but I also want to be mindful that it’s taken a long time for me to get here. And it’s taken people like Julianna to say, like, you are allowed to do that. And sometimes, you know, I, I think in our world, we need permission from everybody, permission from the people we care about sometimes to say like, you don’t have to do that job, or you don’t have to work with that client, or you don’t have to take that supervisee. And I think that it’s allowed me through time to say, you know, if you’re going to work with me, as one of my clients, these are discussions we’re going to have, if you’re a supervisee, you know, the pushback isn’t going to work for me, I’ll find you somebody else. And if you’re in my life professionally, we’re going to have open discussions and dialogue about things. And if I’m going to be uncomfortable, we’re all going to be uncomfortable. Because I’m sick of being the only one uncomfortable around here.

[LATOYA]:
Okay, I hear you. And you know what? I like everything you’re saying. And Julianna. So what I hear you saying like on the flip side of that, or not you saying, I’m asking you.

[JULIANNA]:
Yeah.

[LATOYA]:
So what I hear is, okay, now you’re saying I’m willing to get on that train with you. I respect your boundaries. And I’m willing to take action, because a lot of times, and I’ll be honest, you know, I think a lot of frustration comes when there’s people who aren’t black, that say, okay, well, I don’t want to talk about that, that makes me uncomfortable, or just silent, period. And I completely dislike the silence because your silence is very loud. You know what I’m saying> But you’re saying, listen, I’m willing to get on this train and ride this thing out, like, what was that push for you? Like what propelled you forward, to say this is what I’m doing?

[JULIANNA]:
Well, I’ve never really been quiet, I think maybe part of my life, my lifetime experience that’s made me prepared for this is that I’ve always been willing and wanting to talk about uncomfortable things, or things that push us to our edges to really make us think, to make us sort of step out of our sleep, or napping. And, you know, the privilege that white people have is that they can just sort of nap through life and not really see what the struggle is. And I’m not shy about pushing people to wake up, and myself too. And one of the things that has made my partnership with Andrea so great is that I will say things out loud that I’m totally afraid to say out loud, that I’m sure that I’m like, imposing or messing up or whatever. And then to get the feedback about authenticity and being natural and be me has been helping me be bolder in owning it, you know, not just being a scholar of it, but like living anti-oppression, anti-racist work, and I have to do hard work every day. I don’t see it as an option. And I feel really compelled. I see a lot of white people, and I work as a supervisor with a lot of white people. And I feel like pretty much every conversation has to include some opportunity for us to elevate our conversation out of just what it’s like in our own little bubble of life. And so I’m just willing to do that. I feel like it’s not an option anymore. I’m willing to take the risk to do that. And people know that.

[LATOYA]:
That’s awesome. Do you have a you know, can you reflect back and think of something? Okay, when I sat with Andrea, I was able to say this out loud. And it was okay.

[JULIANNA]:
Do I have to say it out loud?

[LATOYA]:
You don’t have to. I was just wondering if you had it?

[ANDREA]:
Okay. We have a fun… I mean we have serious conversations. But there has been a fun one. Remember, what was the [unclear] on my hair? I got a new hairdo and I’m falling into the curly life. And so the curly lifes means that like, I’m a big lady, so my hair is even big. And Juliana said, is it weird if I comment? I think I said, no. Shoot.

[JULIANNA]:
[Unclear] oh, I got my hair, I went and I got my hair done. I just totally splurged, took a self-care day. And I was like, I know, I saw it on Facebook or on Instagram and I didn’t want to comment because I didn’t want to be that white lady commenting on your hair.

[LATOYA]:
That’s cool, though. You guys have that relationship.

[ANDREA]:
I was like no, please do comment, please do comment. [Unclear]. I was like, I’m more offended that you didn’t [unclear]. Those discussions, right that we get to have, we get to have like, Julianna saying, I didn’t want to say it, was it wrong to say? And me saying like, it wasn’t wrong. And like, we have the relationship where that’s allowed. And there may be people in my life who I don’t have that relationship with. But it also is that authenticity piece of like, we are connected in a way that like, there are things that are within my life and because you respect me and you respect my understanding of the world, and being a black woman in this world, I give you the leeway to comment on my hair.

[JULIANNA]:
But like, I mean, let’s get real, right? Like the conversations we’re really wanting to have and having with people and having with each other, are not the, these are almost like meme oriented, right? Like, now we have a list that we see on social media all the time of like, don’t say this, don’t do this, don’t ask this, don’t you know, and those are all really important frameworks. But I think Andrea has really helped me start to have the conversations about knowing where you’re beginning, you know, what has been the work and me being able to have some confidence and courage and believing that I am, I’m not starting at the beginning, that I need to look at the work that I have already done and being brave and pushing people to, in lots of different ways, not just about racism, but in other ways around waking up and asking themselves hard questions and asking people to share space with me in an uncomfortable way. And then I can then begin from a different place so that we can talk about really the true insidious nature of white supremacy and racism in our bodies. Because I’m somatic-oriented, I’m really intrigued by a lot of the work that’s going on around intergenerational and racism and white supremacy in our bodies and how we live it, how we feel it. And because of my relationship with Andrea, I feel brave enough to sort of know what I know. And then be willing to not know something.

[LATOYA]:
Yeah. And I, you know what, I think you guys have a really cool relationship. First of all, I think it’s awesome that you guys can talk about this, and you guys are able to be vulnerable with each other. Because see, this is I think what you two have is, is the space where I’m hoping community can be, where we can ask certain questions, we can be present, we can be vulnerable. And you know, it’s not that okay, well, I’m so scared of that or scared of confrontation, I’m shying away, or I’m ignoring it. Or having that conversation shakes up my comfort zone. So no, you know, I mean, and a hard no to everything that ever interferes with my comfort zone. But you two are willing to walk into it and be in that space together and hold space for each other. But for those that are listening, how does that work? I don’t know. Like if they don’t have a good relationship with somebody else that’s different, you know, a black or white? And can you just openly ask that question? Do you really think like, Andrea, if you didn’t have a cool relationship with Julianna, that question may have got a totally different way from somebody you didn’t know?

[ANDREA]:
Absolutely. And it has gone a total different way with somebody that I don’t know. Um, and it does. And I think that it allows me the space that sometimes things make me uncomfortable. And I also am entrenched in white supremacy. And I’m trying to figure that out, too. I need to figure out why so and so saying it makes me uncomfortable but Julianna saying it doesn’t make me uncomfortable, right? Like, I think that what comes with this is like I’m also on my own journey, a journey that’s not going to stop and well, I live in a brown body. We all are in the soup of white supremacy and racism. So I have to really sit and go like, why is it that I’m okay with Julianna saying that or why is it that I’m okay having this conversation with her? And a part of it is because of our authenticity and because of our relationship. And I think that there have been times when people have said things that make me uncomfortable and maybe I in my life didn’t have the courage or didn’t have the words to say why. And so I think it is still a journey for me to figure out why.

[LATOYA]:
Okay, all right, great.

________________________________________

[JOE]:
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[LATOYA]:
Now, you guys work together and now so you have your own individual practices, but you came together to form this partnership. So let’s discuss that, um, how did that start, like, what, what brought you together and then the work that you do specifically around like anti-racism within the partnership?

[ANDREA]:
So Julianna and I met at a training, so it was a supervision training. And a part of it was just kind of getting your, you know, continuing care education hour so that you could become a supervisor. But another part of it was more of like an impersonal in-depth understanding of who you are as a therapist, who you are as a person and who you want to be as a supervisor. And so it did take some vulnerable work within the training. And at that time, it was probably like day one, Julianna was the first person to push back and I’m a pusher. I like to push back. And I saw her kind of push back around the understanding of supervision and it was the first time I had heard anybody ever say, supervision isn’t supposed to be policing. We aren’t here to police people, we’re here to support people. And those were kind of the words, but I didn’t have the words just quite yet. And when I heard, we’re not here to police people, it’s like, that’s it. That’s what I want. I want to be around other clinicians who want to support people and uplift people, instead of policing them from fear and that they’re going to do something wrong. So we met in the beginning kind of at a training. And then from there, we started to kind of see each other’s work and connect.

[LATOYA]:
Okay.

[JULIANNA]:
And offer each other a consultation, it was such a relief for me to have somebody like Andrea to reach out to when I was struggling with a client issue or supervisee issue. And, and also to have somebody that I could be colleagues with, like feel that equity, really for me, [unclear] a lot, a lot of things in my life in terms of breaking out of being in isolation or being afraid to be able to be witnessed and really accepted and totally, like, honored and encouraged and empowered. And so it just seemed like our work intertwined really well, the way we see people, the way we see each other. And then there’s a real complementary element to the work we do, because Andrea… We joke a lot about how I kind of tend to lean into the woowoo, and into the sort of softer, deeper side of things. And Andrea is really direct. And both of those things work so well, and the work that we do, and then help each other compliment, though. So if she has a client question, or if I have a client question, we come at it from two different places and come to a place of really quality care.

So when we talked about the partnership, we were really going to do a training for encouraging people to do private practice. So we were all scheduled to do a building a private practice workshop. And that was scheduled for April 11th. And then the pandemic hit and so a lot of the workshops at the institution where we were going to be doing it at were canceled. And so we just put the pause on it, and we were trying to get our practices online, doing it in a different way. And once the social justice uprising happened in Portland, after George Floyd died, was killed, we got together and I really felt so strongly that we needed to talk about how to change it so that it isn’t just building a private practice for anyone but that it’s anti-racist in nature. And Andrea really wanted to elevate the conversation to be about how do we empower people of color, women and other marginalized folks in starting private practices and getting them out of agencies? So that, Andrea, why don’t you jump in here because this is something I know you’re really passionate about in terms of more people of color doing private practice.

[ANDREA]:
So we initially when we had met, Julianna had been in private practice for some time, and I had just really started and I had run up against a lot of barriers. And when we talked about doing a training, I wanted to provide a training that helped people with things that I really struggled with and starting a private practice. And so when the pandemic hit and we’re in the social justice uprising, I, I really just switched gears, I switched gears on my whole practice. And I told Julianna, you know, I want to start a training for other black clinicians. Bipoc, yes, but we need black males and female folks in this field to see the clients. It comes from a part of where I want to serve my community. But I saw also, I have an entire email full of black people who want a black therapist, and we don’t have enough. And so my thought was, if we’re doing this training already, great, I want to serve black people. Julianna comes from approach of trauma-informed and if we can add those things together, we can really start helping bipoc individuals, black individuals, get their practice up and running and see the people who are needed. And so while it comes from a place of healing for me, because it was really challenging for me, it also comes with a place of equity, I want other black clinicians to have successful practices. And Julianna has a successful practice. And so it was also a piece of how can I use what I have and Julianna has what she has, and let’s give this to the community.

[LATOYA]:
It sounds great.

[JULIANNA]:
Also, I want to jump in if I can and say that some of our intention around helping people build private practices is that we see that systemic racism exists in counseling centers and bureaucratic systems that are “supporting people” in getting counseling and therapy. And we’ve both worked in agency settings, where I certainly jumped out quickly because I witnessed how challenging it was to actually help people inside of these systems. But I myself was oppressed, I myself wasn’t getting the support I needed to feel empowered, to feel like I could really be elevating the conversation with clients in these settings. And I know Andrew has talked a lot about the fact that there is this sense that we’re taught in training programs, if you want to serve underserved you have to go work in these agencies. And I think we want to kind of put a stop to that construct. For one, we want to break out of these oppressive systems, so that the clinicians themselves feel empowered. And I mean, then think of the trickle down effect there. Right? Then they’re going to be open to doing the work with their clients that are going to really push their clients out of those systems or really witness and recognize like, yeah, we’re stuck, right? I saw this meme the other day that said something like, white supremacy isn’t the shark, it’s the water. And I thought that was so awesome. Such a good construct to realize, like, we are swimming in the waves. And when we’re in these systems, like agencies, settings, we get kind of swallowed up, we kind of drown a little bit. And when we’re in private practice, and we have colleagues like Andrea and I can be together, then we can kind of float on the water right? We can kind of come up for air at least, and show our clients that they can come up for air too maybe or at least recognize like they’re not the problem a lot of the time.

[LATOYA]:
Yeah, I love how this sounds, I love it completely. I love that, Julianna, you just quoted yourself too, didn’t you? I like that quote though. White supremacy isn’t the shark, it’s the water.

[JULIANNA]:
Oh, that wasn’t mine. I wish that was mine.

[LATOYA]:
I thought that was you. I was like, what? [Unclear]. But um, yeah, what you guys have is absolutely amazing. Not just in okay, personalities, I’m gonna come in a little bit softer, but you’re very direct. But then understanding okay, you have this take on, even when it comes to your experience as being a black woman and then Julianna, you understand the importance of building these healthy practices where the therapist isn’t oppressed, and when you’re free to do the work and talk about all these things. You’re freeing the expert, which is the client, in the issue to actually speak up and advocate and be free. And that in turn, all this is affecting community, because now we’re all moving along and dancing the same. We’re all in rhythm. And we’re actually doing the work. It’s amazing. I think what you guys have is amazing. So you’re helping other practices like from the ground up?

[JULIANNA]:
Yeah. Yes.

[LATOYA]:
That’s great. That’s great. And then what is like your vision? Is it just for Portland? Are you trying to do it…? Like, what do you guys envision with the practice or the partnership?

[ANDREA]:
Well, I always have a vision. Um, I don’t know [unclear] but which I’m sure she will be. But, you know, my vision is to have a network of black and brown clinicians and I want to be very clear, African American clinicians who are willing to serve the African American population through private practice, and to empower everybody, even outside of Oregon, to be able to do that, right. So my vision is that I don’t have 42 emails from brown people looking for a therapist. At the end of this, I have two, and I can take them. That I don’t have all of these people needing clinicians who understand their perspective and understand where they’re coming from. And I do not doubt that this is outside of Oregon, but because Oregon is predominantly white, and saturated with white clinicians who maybe haven’t done the work, our work is allowing for black clinicians to have private practices and autonomy, and to have a life that they actually enjoy and aren’t working 80 hours a week at the clinic, but also to have those white clinicians who will have to serve the African American population. I think that it’s important that white clinicians in Oregon understand that they will, we don’t have enough black clinicians today. And so if you’re going to do the work, we want to be able to ensure that you’re doing anti-racist work, that we aren’t sending clients to you and you harming them more, because you have some of your own perspective that you’re struggling with.

So what I see this as is to empower black clinicians to empower white clinicians when working with our black population, but also to allow people to know that they’re being in the helping field and being a clinician doesn’t mean giving up your own life to help other people have a life. You can enjoy your life, you can have a fulfilling life as a clinician, and have a work life balance that’s enjoyable. And I want people to know that because until I met Julianna, I didn’t know that was possible. I didn’t know people actually enjoyed being therapists. I thought it was like a, you know, something that we all had to do and just sacrificed. And I want people to know that you can have a great practice and enjoy life.

[LATOYA]:
And I think Julianna, like, from what you said earlier, that yoga and meditation that you do, um, that also helps people to enjoy the work that they do, like even therapists or clients, would you agree or…?

[JULIANNA]:
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, I mean, I don’t think I would be sitting here today if I didn’t have some kind of practice that supported me and, you know, my own trauma work. And gave me something to help me tolerate being uncomfortable. And certainly now during these tridemic times that we have to have the capacity for being uncomfortable and uncertain. So yeah, I think for sure, that helps. And as far as the vision goes, like, I’m totally on board with Andrea’s vision. I see it as our vision in terms of figuring out how, you know, perhaps my perspective can be one that becomes a sort of wraparound, just to boost support, to say, no more centering, right? Like, let’s focus on what our community actually needs. And certainly in Portland, what our community needs is more black and brown people serving our black and brown clients and community members, and everybody really being leaders, having leadership that well, I don’t, Andrea has now sort of stepped into a leadership role in the Oregon board, I might just reveal that. And that’s super exciting to me. And it’s like, how, how the culture and community can change, the field can change, when we’re actually hearing from black and brown folks, as leaders.

[ANDREA]:
Thank you for the shout out, Julianna.

[JULIANNA]:
Yeah, you’re welcome.

[LATOYA]:
You uh, Julianna you have awesome quotes and shout-outs like just everything.

[JULIANNA]:
Oh, good.

[LATOYA]:
That’s awesome. But yeah, thank you both so much. This was so great. I’m so excited about this partnership you formed, and what’s the name of, before we wrap up, tell the listeners how they can find you individually and your practices and then how they can find the partnership if they want to link up with you and try to build this type of, you know, a practice that is intentional, being anti-racist and just doing the work?

[ANDREA]:
So, um, my practice is called Uniquely You Counseling. I’m over in Northeast Portland. You can find me at uycounseling.org. You can shoot me an email at [email protected]. Julianna, want to share yours?

[JULIANNA]:
Sure. Yeah. My practice is Heartwood Therapy and Supervision. And you can find me at juliannavermeys.com.

[ANDREA]:
And then we have our joint venture. You can find us on all the social media platforms Instagram, Facebook. Jules and Drea. And so there we post the new things that we have coming up. We also have some trainings coming up where we’re talking about how to create a private practice that’s anti-racist. So if you’re interested, if that’s something that you would like to do, you can always contact us at Jules_Drea on Instagram or Facebook.

[JULIANNA]:
And our partnership training will be called ‘Building a private practice from the soul’. And soon we’ll have our own website that’s specific to our partnership. And so for now, you can reach us through DM through Instagram and Facebook, and look for information about our website there soon and training information. Next week we’re going to be doing a training for supervisors at the Orca, the Oregon Counseling Association annual conference, which is being held online, and their focus is inclusion and equity in counseling this year.

[LATOYA]:
Okay. All right, you too. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to be a guest with me on this podcast takeover. You dropped some just amazing knowledge about just the supervision and building a practice from the ground up and just the work you do. I love the partnership again. I love the vulnerability you guys have with each other and I just appreciate your voices. So thank you so much for being a guest.

[ANDREA]:
Thank you.

[JULIANNA]:
Thank you so much, LaToya.

________________________________________

[JOE]:
Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music; we really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate, authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.