Low-Hanging Fruit on Websites | Website Roundtable with John Clarke, Perry Rosenbloom, Joe Sanok and Jaime Jay | PoP 284

Website Roundtable

Have you ever wondered what low-hanging fruit you could improve on your website? Do you know what the essentials to every website are? Are you aware of what elements of your website annoy your users?

In this episode, Joe Sanok speaks with with John Clarke, Perry Rosenbloom, Joe Sanok and Jaime Jay, in this Website Roundtable about low-hanging fruit.

Podcast Sponsor

Earlier this year, we launched Next Level Practice. Next Level Practice is the supportive community that helps people start practices. Over time, we are going to continue to add content around growing and scaling a practice but, for right now, it’s just for people that have said to themselves, “I want to start a practice!” And, they got it going, and maybe it’s not going as well as they want.

There are so many different things that are part of this. We have live webinars, live Q&A, you get matched up with a one-on-one accountability partner, you get put into a small group of other people starting practices, and you get the support of me and my whole team – Alison, Sam, and Emily. We give away tons of free stuff, and we have competitions in there to help you take really great steps towards starting a practice. Things like: updating your Facebook page, making sure that your website looks good, and making sure that you’re attracting your ideal client.

So, if you are starting a practice and you want the authoritative, supportive community to be surrounding you so that you can be successful, head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite.


Meet John Clarke

I’m a licensed psychotherapist and a private practice expert. I’ve built thriving practices from the ground up in San Francisco, CA and Charlotte, NC.

In building my current practice, I had 6 private-pay clients booked for the first day that my doors were open.


Meet Jaime Jay

Jaime is a big hockey fan and he loves incorporating the sport into his business. He is the managing director for http://slapshotstudio.com, a WordPress development company where he builds websites that help define your brand.

He is the host of http://stopridingthepine.com. It’s a business marketing show where he interviews top thought leaders, authors, business professionals and more.

One of the most challenging areas in the podcasting industry is finding the time to consistently publish your podcast. He founded http://podcastpilot.com. This is a company that helps solve the time spent on publishing podcasts by offering professional editing and writing services. Basically, all a podcaster has to do is record their show and hand it off to Podcast Pilot. They will put your podcast on auto-pilot.

He is also the founder of http://doneforyouwp.com. Jaime has established a staff of WordPress developers that provide WordPress maintenance and help for people that don’t have the time or the knowledge to manage their own WordPress website.

Meet Perry Rosenbloom

Perry is the founder of Brighter Vision and bootstrapped the business from day one.

Before founding Brighter Vision, Perry built a number of outdoor-oriented, Internet based businesses that currently send over $1,000,000 in annual sales to REI, Backcountry, Amazon and other major brands.


In This Podcast


This is episode one of the three-part podcast series, Website Roundtable. In this episode, John Clarke, Jaime Jay, and Perry Rosenbloom discuss the low-hanging fruit to do with websites. This includes making sure that every website decision you make correlates with the core values of your business. And, that you define who you want to serve first.

Essentials of a Website

  • Mobile responsive
  • Don’t direct traffic to homepage
    • Need to always be building like/love/trust with users. If you’re promoting a specific product/service, you need to lead them to the specific page with that product/service on it.
  • Clear call-to-action/s
    • First one in top right
  • Tagline (basic branding asset)
    • Should intrigue, inspire, or calm the visitor
    • Placed in top third of page (above the fold)
  • Logo in top left (bright / clear, with high contrast)

“Your website is only as good as it’s message / logo.”

Two Questions People Ask Themselves When Arriving on Your Website

  • Am I in the right place?
  • Can this person help me?

Things on Your Website That Are Annoying Your Users

  • Fast-paced slider of images
  • Music
  • Video that starts playing automatically
    • Negative effects on your SEO
  • Other people’s quotes on your homepage / header
  • Not explaining acronyms / words that the ‘average’ person doesn’t understand, i.e.: EMDR
  • Trying to say too much with too much text (less is more!)
  • Not speaking to the villain (i.e.: people’s pain points)

“A website is a tool to build a relationship.”

Low-Hanging Fruit – Quick Fixes

  • Content / service pages (specific pages on various services)
  • People skim; make sure content is readable and that there isn’t too many words
    • About 55% of people spend 15 seconds or less on a page
  • Clear call-to-actions (repeat CTAs, but don’t have too many)
  • Decrease amount of steps user needs to take to book an appointment
  • Reduce menu items

Useful Links:

Meet Joe Sanok

private practice consultantJoe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.






Thanks For Listening!

Feel free to leave a comment below or share this podcast on social media by clicking on one of the social media links below! Alternatively, leave a review on iTunes and subscribe!

Podcast Transcription

File: PoP 284 Low Hanging Fruit on Websites_Website Roundtable
Duration: 0:42:19:23
[START] Joe Sanok: Obviously, you’re going to invest in a website. Of course, you’re going to want IT support. But there’s also something else that is a no-brainer when it comes to leveling up your practice. Next level practice is the membership community and to call it a membership community doesn’t even capture what it really is. It is the authoritative support for starting a practice. If you are under $40,000 a year and you don’t want to waste time. You want to launch faster and you want to start seeing clients all in the context of community and learning with me, then will you go over to www.practiceofthepractice.com/invite so that you can request your invitation for the next cohort for next level practice. We just launched our second cohort and it filled up quickly and we would love for you to go and request your invite today. Again, that’s www.practiceofthepractice.com/invite.


This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session #284.

[MUSIC] [INTRODUCTION] Joe Sanok: I am Joe Sanok, your host and today we are starting the first day of a three part series all about websites. It’s a website roundtable. I did another one of these a year or two ago and now we are updating it with our favorite website folks and it’s going to be awesome. So by the end of this podcast, you are going to know the low-hanging fruit on your website. You are going to know the essentials, and the you are also going to know the things that we are so sick of seeing on websites that can make it so that clients don’t want to see you. I can’t wait for you to hear this website roundtable. So without any further ado, let’s dive in.


Joe Sanok: Well today on the Practice of the Practice Podcast, I have my three favorite web guys, marketing guys. They are just amazing. All three of them are also podcasters. So we have John Clarke from Unconditional Media who is the expert, the guru all around Facebook ads and Google ads and making sure your website is awesome when they get there. John, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast.

John Clarke: Thanks Joe, happy to be here.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, we also have Jaime Jay from Slapshot Studio. He came to Slowdown School. He is amazing with custom websites and marketing and branding. Jaime, how you’re doing today?

Jaime Jay: Doing awesome. Thanks so much for having me.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, I’m glad you are here. And then we have Perry Rosenbloom from Brighter Vision. They just have amazing websites and tech support, and help people with a monthly plan. Perry, how you’re doing today?

Perry Rosenbloom: I am doing great. Good to seeing here everybody. Excited to be here.

Joe Sanok: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know it’s funny. We have four tech guys here, and between the four of us we had a few [00:02:53.13] going into it. Perry, you got locked out of your bedroom this morning, didn’t you?

Perry Rosenbloom: I did, yeah. [LAUGH] My two-year old decided to lock the door and close door behind him and everybody else was on the other side. And the standard, you know, inject a little, put a little like…

Joe Sanok: Like a pen or something in there?

Perry Rosenbloom: A pen or something? Yeah. And the lock just did not work to unlock it. So…

John Clarke: [00:03:16.27] escape rooms like that. You know, it’s like [CROSSTALK/ LAUGHTER] the whole experience. Maybe that’s kind of what he was thinking…

Joe Sanok: Yeah, I did an escape room in Boulder. It was awesome.

Perry Rosenbloom: [LAUGH] Yeah, it was a fun, exciting morning. Definitely, did not get my full share of coffee yet. So, I will probably be pouring a few cups during these recordings.

[ESSENTIALS OF A WEBSITE] [Mobile Responsive]

Joe Sanok: Yeah. And then Jaime had some troubles logging into Skype and John always looks like he is just like fresh out of a modeling magazine because he is just so hip and cool. [LAUGH] So… well, you guys are so glad that you’re here today – our first episode of this. We are going to do three of these episodes together. We are diving into kind of essentials to a website. So when I say essentials to a website, maybe Perry, why don’t you kick us off? What are things that you think of that are just essentials? Basic building blocks that people just need to know about a website?

Perry Rosenbloom: Yeah, well first and foremost it needs to be mobile responsive. From a search engine optimization perspective and from a usability perspective having a mobile responsive website is hence down the most important thing. And these days no matter where you go, whether it’s a custom built site, whether it’s Squarespace website, whether it’s building it yourself on a standard WordPress theme or Brighter Vision or Unconditional Media or Slapshot Studios, it’s all going to be mobile responsive. So that’s a good thing in this day and age. You know, when we started most people did not have a mobile responsive websites. And when it comes to usability and search engine optimization, it needs to be formatting properly on any device.

Joe Sanok: Well, yeah, and I think people are using their devices so much more, even than their computers. Like just recently we started the next level practice which is a supportive group community and the webinar platform we used they did a “update,” and their new update made it that you couldn’t call into the webinar using a phone or an iPad. Like some of our users only have iPad. And so it was like we had five or ten people that they just couldn’t access it unless they were at a desktop and thus to me, I am totally with you that, that mobile side of it is only growing. Jaime, what about you? What do you think are things that are just basic essentials for a website?

[Don’t Direct Traffic to Home Page] Jaime Jay: Ah, I love that you brought up the mobile responsiveness that fits all the different size of devices. I think you definitely have to be there. I think probably one of the biggest things right now that I see people having challenges with, especially when, you know, John is offering like the Google AdWords and the Facebook ads, things like that, when people are driving to a website, a lot of people are driving traffic to their home page. And I think this is the biggest challenge. And it is one of the most easiest things to fix, but it’s one of those things you don’t know what you don’t know. And so when one of the biggest things especially to get a client or patient or customer or you know…

Joe Sanok: Whatever word you use for your people…

Jaime Jay: … you have to build that, like, love and trust thing. I mean they are going to be bearing all in some cases, right? They really want to have that trust factor. And if you go from one environment that they trust i.e. Facebook or Twitter or whatever it maybe, they trust that environment. And all of a sudden they get redirected over to your website. Well, now you have to rebuild that trust again, because this is something they don’t know. They are starting out. You know, this is a new thing, and if you say, hey, you know, get this ABC Whiz Bank which could be, you know, whatever it is, nice comforting offer. If they come to your home page and they don’t see that ABC Whiz Bank there, they are going to be like, wait, this is not what I’m looking for and people don’t have time to look around. But if you take them to the landing page it says, “Hey, you are interested in our ABC Whiz Bank you are in the right place. Now, I’ll say like “Ah, I’m home. This is great.” So that… I think that transition from living one environment to another has to really be thought out from your hub, your websites point of view.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, I think one thing that I often say to people is that there is really only two things that people ask themselves when they first get on a website. First, “Am I in the right place?” Because so many websites are unclear of, you know, are they actually a counseling website. They’ve a beautiful tree with stream by and it says, there is hope for your family. And it could just as easily be a funeral home as it could be a counseling practice…

Perry Rosenbloom: [LAUGH].

Joe Sanok: … and so just first and foremost, like do you have the word counseling on there? Are there in the right place? So I think you are tapping into that. And then after that it seems like people ask themselves, “Well, can this person actually help me?” And so if you are not talking about your specialty, if you are not giving a little bit around that there is hope for this issues that you can help with, people are going to click off that, your bounce rate, which is how often people just kind of leave your website really quickly. That’s kind of just go through the roof… John, what about you? What do you think are some essentials to a website that just… you know, things that really we should assume that these are things that people are doing, maybe they are not even doing, but that should be the basic assumptions.

[Clear Call-to-action/ Tagline as Basic Branding Asset/ Bright, Clear Logo] John Clarke: Yeah, I think you know one of the biggest thing we see is especially when we are getting a therapist site ready for AdWords or any type of pay the advertising or doing SEO work. If you’re going to send more traffic to your site, you need to… a clear call-to-action is essential. But also I like to start kind of lower than that and work on a tagline and work on some of these really kind of just basic branding assets. I see too many therapists, and therapists I worked with every week where you land on their page and it says, you know, John Smith therapy individual counseling, couple’s counseling, family counseling – call now. That’s just not enough. There is really nothing compelling about that. So what I like to do with most therapist is spend some time with them in a copywriting session, sit down and craft a tagline that either intrigues, inspires or even calms the visitor. A log of taglines, I think, can be centered around calmness if that is kind of what you are going for. But it might just be something so short and sweet that it just intrigues a person to read more. Right? So they land. Ideally they encounter a few things when they land whether it’s a home page or service page. So top left should be a nice, bright, clear logo. Something with high contrast. Again, if you don’t have a logo, you’re messing up. That’s you need to start there and even if you feel like it’s expensive, I don’t have the money for it I think, your website is only as good as its message and it’s only as good as its logo. Right? So a lot of things need to tie back into those two things. So top left, a logo, and then the [00:10:02.23] scan in a Z fashion. Right? So if they scanning in a Z, starting at the top left, they are going to scan to the top right which is where your first call to action, should ideally be. And then when they are scanning down that Z across, across the center of the page or kind of above the fold there, they need to encounter something that’s intriguing. Right? Something that either tells me I am in the right place, I should keep reading or I am in the wrong place. I should get the heck out of here. Right? That is, you know, in large part can’t be just the purpose of a tagline or having some sort of text there that tells the visitor kind of what to do next or again it either affirms that they are on the right place or tells them maybe this isn’t the right place for me.

[THINGS ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT ARE ANNOYING YOUR USERS] Joe Sanok: Yeah. Yeah. What you guys see on websites that either annoy you or they’re either like, “Man, that’s totally immature. That’s messed up.” Like I know that when I first launched Practice of the Practice, I had this really fast slider that was going through, because I wanted to make sure people saw all the great content I had, which now like we don’t have that anymore because we just like we want that kind of paste. And so now for me just personally, when I see these really fast sliders on a therapy page, like, that’s just kind of personally annoying. I feel like people should just like tone it down little bit, either slow down the slides or just pick one thing that represents everything. Just mine own personal annoyance, but, like, what you guys see as things that really… if that’s on your website you got to get that changed right away.

Perry Rosenbloom: Music…


Perry Rosenbloom: … that, you know, it’s a pretty low percentage. But if you’re going to talk about the one thing that’s going to… just going to, “Oh, my God. Please let’s get rid of this.” You never want music playing that was like so 1995. Don’t put music on your website. That would be my number one pet peeve on those slides.

Joe Sanok: Now, what about video that automatically starts playing. Are there ways to do that in a way or is that just a no, no? [CROSSTALK] [00:12:06.06]…

Perry Rosenbloom?: I mean I feel Jaime [CROSSTALK] [00:12:06.28] what do you think….

John Clarke? [00:12:08.09]: Jaime says no.

Joe Sanok: No. Perry, go ahead. I want to hear your thoughts.

Perry Rosenbloom: Well, I think that there are two different types of video. There’s sort of like the serene video that can be put in place of a photo slide show or a standard photo. A big banner photo at the top. And that’s okay. It’s kind of trendy these days. I’m not the biggest fan of it. But I think that’s okay versus the other type of video which will auto play upon loading and that you know is kind of the same way to my opinion as music playing as soon as you go website. But I would love to hear what Jaime’s thought are on this after seeing his emphatic head shake…

Joe Sanok: Your hair almost fell off, you’re shaking head so much.

Jaime Jay: So you asked what’s the one thing to get rid off, auto play on video 150,000 percent. And you can pretty much Google this anywhere or even just talk to people and the second they go to a website and it blasts out, you know, “Aw. Welcome.” There could be in an office environment, the kids could be asleep, they could startle your grandma [00:13:18.02] [CROSSTALK]…

Joe Sanok: Especially a counseling website. “So is your marriage falling apart?” Honey, what you are listening to?…


Jaime Jay: [00:13:23.18] methamphetamine. So 100 percent totally disable auto play. There is also SEO ramifications to this as well. So, if you are going on a mobile device or something like that, where it just automatically kicks off similar to pop-ups, if you’re not clicking a function to enable video to play or to enable a pop-up of some sorts, you’ll actually get dinged. Google talked about this in a recent update. It’s actually a little over a year ago. But yeah, so if you have auto play or auto pop-ups, things like that, get rid of it ASAP – as soon as possible.

Joe Sanok: Yeah. I went on this website. I was reviewing different webinar platforms to switch to because our other one now isn’t more friendly. And it started with this auto play video. It’s like this scratchy, almost like a conspiracy theory type video and this guy is like clicking on the like screen like, hey you, you… what are you doing here? And I was so… I thought I was in the wrong website and I was just like, what the heck. Like that is like terrible branding. And so, yeah, I right away wanted to leave. John what about you? What [00:14:34.15]…

John Clarke: It’s… yeah… it’s a relationship. Right? I bring this back to a lot of therapists in that if you just met someone you wouldn’t walk up and [00:14:43.25] with him [00:14:45.07] if you are not. If you are of sound mind, that’s not what you do. But the video is a good example of that or the music or the “buy my thing now.” Right? or “Call now,” without any sort of warming up first. If you think of it like a relationship, there are steps to it. Right? There’s something small… you can make a small, but meaningful impression that leads to something else. And I know I’m talking kind of abstract here, but I think it’s more important rather than talking technicalities sometimes it’s good to just talk about like how a website is a tool to build a relationship. Right. And that’s a language a therapist can understand. So use little commonsense when you’re thinking about, okay, how do I not scare people away, but again give them enough to go, “Yeah, I want to keep talking to this guy. I want to hear what else he has to say.” I have to say my number one pet peeve and I didn’t have to think hard about this – and a lot of therapists are out there and they are going to hear this and be like, “Well shoot, this is me” – other people’s quotes on your home page or on your header or on your [00:15:44.21] image. I just don’t think it does anything for you because you land. Right? And I want to know who the hell you are, not who Carl Jung is or Carl Rogers or [00:15:55.26] quote… right?…

Joe Sanok: Brene Brown or… yeah.

John Clarke: … I mean it’s… again, if you go to a Nike’s website, you are not going to see a quote from Adidas or someone else. Right? So when I land again, I want to experience you brand assets. I want to experience something that’s unique to you, not just another quote that I am absolutely not going to read. Right? I am not here to read inspirational quotes from other people. So, do away with those, and in those places where you have those quotes put your tagline in it – even if your tagline is not perfect. Right? People… they want to hear it from you. So it should be coming from your voice.

Joe Sanok: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it all goes back to that hold no like and trust and so if someone doesn’t even know you exist, if you go back to the relationship, if they don’t know you exist… I had to first meet my wife before we were to go snowboarding together. And then it’s like now we ride the chairlift for a while and then we like each other. And then over time we build that trust. If I just jumped to, “Hey, you want to leave your toothbrush in my house,” like, probably not going to fly when you first meet somebody. And so if someone doesn’t know you exist and they come to your website for the first time, your only goal is, “Okay, now you know that I exist. Let’s make sure there’s some affinity here. So that you like me a little bit and you understand that I can help rather than, let’s dive right into this offer and have all these pop-ups and stuff. Hey Perry, you were going to jump in there?

Perry Rosenbloom: I think that there is… yeah, I think there is a time and place for quotes on website. So, part of a website – not only is it to brand yourself, but it’s also to create a feeling and to create a… to get your website to resonate with your target client. So I definitely agree that you want your tagline at the top. Most websites these days are more of a long-form home page. It’s a pretty modern design trend. And as people are scrolling down, that’s a really good opportunity to put a quote in. Because you only have… you know, you have your first impression your tagline, your logo all above the fold and as people are scrolling down having a cohesive field to your overall design and to your overall brand, a quote isn’t it can be used as a really essential element to that? Because your target client is going to be looking at your entire brand, your entire website, not just your [00:18:21.23] image above the fold. And so I think it’s important to remember that there can be a balance to that, to create that entire cohesive brand. And I just think that it’s important to have that balanced. Definitely we don’t want the quote above the fold, but ….

Joe Sanok: Yeah, Perry. Would you want to have some context there where it’s like, you know, I’m going to introduce this Brene Brown quote and then have the quote and then pull it back to the therapist or is it okay just to have that floating quote out there?

Perry Rosenbloom: The way we’ve been structuring our websites lately and our new themes that we are designing is a static image, your logo, the Z thing that John was talking about before your logo, call-to-action over to the right, tagline and [00:19:02.25] image in the middle, scrolling down some welcome text, call-to-actions and/a quote in that location with a nice background image to help keep people scrolling down. If they don’t click off on a call-to-action in the middle of your site, a quote with a nice image… a quote overlaid on top of a nice image will keep people engaged in your website, keep them scrolling down if they did not click off the call-to-action, and get to the next area where you have call-to-actions below it where people can click off “call,” “fill out our contact form,” things of that nature.

Joe Sanok: Yeah. John, what do you think of that?… Are we going to have a fight here?…

John Clarke?: [LAUGH].

Joe Sanok: … You guys are allowed to disagree. No… that’s what I love about it. [00:19:40.24] we can have different perspectives and just say… yeah…

John Clarke: You know, again, I would rather it be a quote from you [00:19:48.14] I am learning more about Joe Sanok. I don’t want to hear about a Steve Jobs quote or something like that, even though it might reflect you, I think what would be even stronger. Right? It is your words or even… and I know testimonials are a tricky thing for us but I think something that your clients have said, right, or something that other people have said about you I think would be stronger. I am curious as to what Jaime’s thoughts are, also having worked with lot of people from other industries like what’s your stands on the quotes thing.

Jaime Jay: Yeah, actually I love quotes too. I’m definitely not putting quotes in above the fold on any page or any subpages anything like that on – I’m really against that. But I do like quotes every once in a while, not a bunch of them, but every once a while because one thing that will help build trust I think when people come to a site is sharing a similar belief system. And you want to attract people that believe in what you are doing and they can resonate with you through an example of someone they do know as to someone that they don’t know you yet. So they are still getting to know you, but if they say, oh my gosh I did Brene Brown… you know, oh my gosh, I just saw Brene Brown speak, where all of sudden there is something that you can talk about right in the beginning. Maybe during that first call, they are like, oh, you know, I know this’s your Brene Brown quote. Like, this would happen. But if it did, oh my gosh, yeah… So, we talk about that. It could be a great way or an insight on establishing that relationship earlier on. That’s the reason I embrace quotes. However, that being said, I agree with it. I don’t think quotes need to be everywhere. But every once in a while you can sprinkle them in there and I think it’s a really cool way of creating that a shared belief system.

John Clarke: I think the challenge is differentiating yourself with a quote, and I think therapist tend to use them in place of something original as it maybe that, that’s more my beef with it. Also it’s funny that everyone is saying Brene Brown because that’s going to be the most overused quote right now. So, again, if I am looking at ten therapists website at a time or I’m a client, I am on Psychology Today and I open up five different therapist websites and three of them have a Brene Brown quote on them, you all lose. All three of those websites lose in my opinion. So again, I just… I am not going to put my money on it, and even though it might speak to the client. In some regard I think it’s down the list in terms of things that’re essential assets of a website.

Perry Rosenbloom: Oh yeah… not an essential asset. But I think it can be… when used properly, it can help convey the overall brand and the overall feeling you’re trying to convey. [00:22:33.09] Personally, I think that you’re putting your own personal quote on your website. It’s gonna send that kind of vibe that can turn off a lot of potential clients [CROSSTALK] [00:22:47.06]…

John Clarke: Yeah, I am not talking about [00:22:49.22] quoting yourself [CROSSTALK] [00:22:50.26]…

Perry Rosenbloom: … especially if you’re [00:22:50.02]… you did say instead of like a professional quote, having a quote down there… you know, definitely want to craft you own copy, your own home page, your own engaging content. But you’re looking to create a cohesive feeling, a cohesive messaging, and a quote …

John Clarke: I think where a lot of therapists [00:23:09.28] they often don’t know what their direction is or what that cohesive feeling is, and so we just use quotes just randomly.

Joe Sanok: I think that’s the differentiator.

Perry Rosenbloom: That’s our job, right, though.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, but I think that’s what is great about all three of your answers. Even though you land in differently about quotes, you thought it through and you have a reason why. And I would say the average therapist isn’t even taking the time to say, “Well, why should I have a quote here? What’s the purpose [00:23:36.11] [CROSSTALK]…

John Clarke: Right. What is my brand?

Joe Sanok: … You know, Jaime saying, okay, there’s a couple points of view. So for example, if you are couples therapist, yeah, maybe you do want to have Dr. Gottman quoted somewhere, but you don’t want it to be right at the top you know, so that it takes away from you. But at least think through why and really kind of analyze that. Almost it’s like there is a decision making checklist. Have you actually thought through why you are putting this quote on here. Is it overused? Well, don’t use that person. Is that going to actually like help your branding? Yeah, Jaime?

Jaime Jay: Can I jump in there just for a quick second? So this is why it’s so important. Before you ever build a website, I love that John brought out going over the brand and stuff like that. One of the biggest things that I think a lot of therapists miss out on is establishing what their core values are, not to mention a vision of what you aspire to be, what is your mission, you know, all of that. The brand mantra, all that. But the four core values. Because if you’re not living up to your core values – three, four, five whatever it is. For me, it’s four – every time I make a decision, I ask myself is this part of my core value. And this has a lot to do with web development. A ton to do with web development. So you are going to put something like a quote in. Why are you doing that? And a good way to judge that decision is ask yourself, “Hey, is this part of my core values?” Is this really going to help me… you know, help another client…

Joe Sanok: Well, that’s where our website or marketing material where we choose to speak or whatever it is that we are doing, it’s an extension of who we are as a people, but then also an extension of the business we are trying to create. I think too often people just say, I just want a Psychology Today that gets clients. Well, why? Like, I want a website that just gets clients. Great. But who are you trying to serve? Is that everybody? It that the individual couples in family counseling or are you really good at anxiety work or are you really good with EMDR. Because, you know, people will always assume that a specialist can be a generalist. You know if I go to a fancy restaurant with my wife and then my father-in-law is with us and he wants a burger. The burger is going to be pretty delicious. Whereas if we go to some mom and pop restaurant and I order creme brulee because I love it, they are not going to make a good creme brulee. And so being able to really define who do you want to serve first and have those core values, I love that Jaime. What are other things that annoy you guys about websites. We just talked for 10 minutes about quotes.


Perry Rosenbloom: Who would have guessed that quotes would have been such a lightening one, right? I know, I know. It’s like fox news here, you know. Yelling at you, you know. I want to get you guys yelling and crying. No, , you know. I was kidding [LAUGH].

Jaime Jay: I will, I will… if I can [00:26:21.10] I would you just set it on EMDR… I just picked that one… For me, I have only been involved in kind of learning about therapists for almost a year now. So I am still relatively new. But when you say something like EMDR to me – a relative outsider – well, I can probably relate more so to a therapist client coming for the first time. And a lot of times, you go to these websites and you’ll see, ah, I do EMDR. What the heck is the EMDR?… or there is a lot of acronyms or a lot of words that you are so used to as a therapist or psychologist that someone like me might feel intimidated or… well, this isn’t what I need. In all actuality, yeah, that’s really what you need. So they are going to the next person that says, “Oh hey, we can help you through these eye movement exercises. You know, “Oh, really??…

Joe Sanok: Yeah. We can [00:27:22.19] and I think that taps into that [00:27:26.20] do you speak to kind of the value or the outcome, or you’re speaking to kind of the function or the features of counseling. So for example, my wife got this big like essential oil set and some of the oils are just like frankincense. It’s just like what’s in the oil. But other ones are called like Joy or Serenity or Calm. And it’s like when my kids are going crazy and it’s bath time, I’m just like, okay, we’re using Calm tonight because I know that’s supposed to work to calm people down and so… say…

Perry Rosenbloom: [LAUGH].

Joe Sanok: … EMDR doesn’t even speak. That’s like the wheels on a airplane versus we get to the Hawaii 10 minutes faster and you can sit on the beach.

Perry Rosenbloom: And that’s a features, risks, benefits conversations there. So EMDR and even saying that you use eye movement techniques to help, that’s a feature. The benefit is we are going to… are you struggling with, you know, anxiety. And is anxiety controlling your life? Are you ready to kick anxiety in the rear end. Something like that. That’s a benefit. And so with your website you want the copy to be… speaking about the benefits, get somebody to contact you and then that’s when you can go into the features of how you go about resolving that. That’s a really great point Jaime, that EMDR to the general population, that does not mean anything.

Joe Sanok: [00:28:43.09] Even the letters are after our names. They just assume that you have a license. They don’t care if it’s a MSW and LPC, NBCC… like, I’d love that point Jaime. Because I think that so often we do get into the acronyms, and you know, anytime you join a new nonprofit or something, they have their acronyms. And it’s just… it’s so pointless.

John Clarke: Yeah… So…

Perry Rosenbloom: I think there is a difference in that you can have your acronyms, but then there is also the benefit of level X certified. Like level III Gottman certified. And that’s a really crucial point right there because that’s going to allow you to differentiate from other therapists out there. And this is a benefit because I am level X certified, and so this gives me additional education and training to help you through your struggles.

Joe Sanok: I think that’s a keyword to help you that so often one of the pet peeves is websites that props up the counselor as this amazing hero… blah, blah, blah… when it’s really people on websites saying what’s in it for me? I want to help with my marriage. I want to help with my kids and often times it’s all focused on, well, I have been published here, and it’s like a veto rather than actually trying to get me to come to their site or come to their office.

John Clarke: Yeah, so one of my favorite marketer is Donald Miller who lot of people probably know about. He talks a lot about you want your consumer to burn as few calories as possible, right, and there is this survival instinct that we all have to conserve energy. So when you’re thinking about your marketing, less is absolutely more. And when you are thinking about the text in your page less is more, especially when you’re just trying to make that impression. And then he also teaches a lot about identifying a villain in your client story. And so a lot of companies will do this, whether it’s like a cleaning solution and the villain is like those little dust bunnies that have little faces and eyes on them and you can kind of personify the villain for therapist or for Unconditional Media [00:30:45.15] therapist, it’s you know, we help you avoid empty slots on your calendar. Right, we help you avoid an empty couch in front of you, a phone that hasn’t been ringing for a week. Right? So I think if you started to speak to those villains, it’s going to warm people up. People are going to identify with it and at some point you make a pivot in your copy that starts to introduce how are you going to help them beat that villain.

Joe Sanok: Well, I think it’s similar to a lot of pharmaceutical companies, in that often times I have a cartoon of like the angry, depression, or the cloud that keeps following the person and then they put up the umbrella and they are still sad, and it’s like it creates a story out of it where the person is that hero and we are the [00:31:28.15] kind of walk in through it as a guide. Yeah, I love the StoryBrand podcast and this new book. So other things that [CROSSTALK] [00:31:35.11]…

John Clarke: [00:31:34.24] And I think you can paint a picture with… sorry… you can paint a picture with words as well…

Joe Sanok: Yeah.

John Clarke: … So again, speak to that visual, right, where the empty couches are very clear visual and there is a feeling that goes along with that of not having anyone on the calendar, of the phone not ringing. So I have some examples of web copy we worked on recently for really compelling home pages. So we can maybe get into that at some point, when you feel like it’s [CROSSTALK] [00:32:00.00]…

Joe Sanok: Yeah. We’ll see how much we get through today and that maybe a little teaser for tomorrow. So I think we will do it probably every day for three days in a row. So we will say tomorrow. So other things that are just super [00:32:13.18] on websites [CHUCKLE].

[LOW-HANGING FRUIT – QUICK FIXES] Perry Rosenbloom: Well, could we talk about something that are really great on websites?

Joe Sanok: [LAUGH] You are going to positive. Okay. What are some low-hanging fruits…

Perry Rosenbloom: [00:32:24.07] I went outside. It’s cold. I want to talk about some [00:32:26.06]…

Joe Sanok: [LAUGH] Sure. Sure. So what’s the low-hanging fruit? What are the things that are good for websites that are easy fixes? We’ll get tomorrow into kind of funnels and like the big SEO type stuff and how to attract people using paid advertising. But today, what are some quick fixes that, you know, will really help a website stand out?

Perry Rosenbloom: Hopping first, I guess. Your content and your service pages. This is… we will probably hop into this little bit more on day two I’m sure, and Joe, I think I even mentioned this in our last podcast that we had together. But this is like, this is the drum I have been beating for about a year now. The best thing that you can do, the lowest-hanging fruit, to make your website stand out to get more traction and love from Google, to help with your pay per click campaigns is to write specific pages about all the services you offer. So not just a services page we go into the services that you offer, but a specific page on couples counseling if you offer couples counseling, a specific page on counseling for depression if you work with people who suffer from depression or counseling for anxiety. Specific pages, only 300 words is enough, about what you do, what that service is, who it’s for, that’s going to give you so much love in Google, it’s going to make your website stand out. It’s going to provide more engaging content, more opportunities for people to read your content, to contact you, and it’s going to help with your pay per click campaigns because your costs are going to be lower, because you are going to send them to better converting pages and more specific pages. That’s my big drum that I have been beating for about a year now.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, so Jaime and John, as people build service pages, build out extra pages on their site, what else do you think they should be cognizant of? What else would you want to make sure they know?

John Clarke: So people skim. We know that. We know that about 55 percent of website visitors spend 15 seconds or less on a webpage. That’s not very long. Right? So on one hand the challenge is – like Perry was saying for the sake of SEO, for the sake of having what’s called a quality score from Google. For instance, if you are running Google ads to a page, Google gives that page a quality score and that quality score has a lot to do with your success with an advertising campaign. So there is… things like word count are important, but also readability is extremely important and I would say skimmability, if that’s even a word [LAUGH]…

Joe Sanok: It’s like [00:34:45.08] numbers, bold. Header lines. Things like that.

John Clarke: Exactly, differentiating the most important text what Kelly Higdon would call kind of the gut punch of your text, right? So I think also having essential kind of thesis for each page. Right? Whether it’s coming back to your tagline or just coming back to how you help couples fight less or something like that or you help couples find love again. Whatever it is. Keep it really simple, have that kind of core thesis that is very present in the page and you repeat it in the page. Human brain loves repetition. The unconscious loves repetition. So I think the more you can repeat either a theme like that and/or a call to action, people are going to be more likely to follow through. I think if people can encounter the same call-to-action at least twice if not three times on a page, they are tremendously more likely to follow through. I think also a lot of therapists have too many calls-to-action. We are working on a website yesterday getting a therapist ready for AdWords. And she has got a fantastic website. Everything is ready to go, except in the top right you see phone number, fax number, cell number, contact form and [CROSSTALK] [00:36:02.29]…

Joe Sanok: Join my email list also.


John Clarke: …Right. So again, I have got to burn too many calories [00:36:08.18] which one to do. And also, why would I fax you if I don’t know you? [LAUGH] So for her it was like, let’s pick one, make it abundantly simple and abundantly obvious, and remove some steps between that client and getting in the door with you. So for her it was set up a link on Calendly, an online scheduling tool, click now to schedule your first consult. Right? So I clicked one button and I am looking at the therapist calendar and I booked my 15-minute call for tomorrow, something like that. So I think in terms of user experience and also kind of consumer experience, there is a lot you can do to shorten the distance between you and potential clients. So…

Joe Sanok: Yeah. Jaime, what do you think are some other kind of low hanging fruit, things that people could change on their website?

Jaime Jay: Mm-hmm. Well, I think if you are building the website out, you have to be intentional about it. So I think a lot of people like to just get it done and get over with. “I got to get the site up and…” “I don’t have time to do with this.” Well, make time. [LAUGH] That’s probably the lowest-hanging fruit I can possibly think of. Because when I say being intentional, I really like the fact that you guys are talking about creating certain pages with a certain number of words on that page and the quality score, and you know Google and all that stuff. That’s really important. And I would even challenge you. Google goes on to say this is “cornerstone content.” So any one who offers products or services, Google doesn’t like for you to have more than four. If you have more products and services, they are almost suggesting to have another site. And the reason why is they are smart about this. Because now you are confusing the message…

Perry Rosenbloom: Yeah.

Jaime Jay: … so when this low-hanging fruit can easily be changed, the minimum content for cornerstone content is 1500 words according to Google – 1500 words. Now, you look at it and say, well, no one is going to read that. Well, they are probably not, but you do want them to find you. Right? So it’s really important that you identify these one, two, or three or four. I would highly recommend no more than four on your website. Now, people want to, like, I want to let everybody know that. Well, you can take care of that in your blogging or your videos or whatever else that is that you are doing. But on your website, you want to keep it simple. So you want to have that cornerstone content. You want to fill that out. You want to do the “writing up these pages,” that can change. And that’s the thing about these static pages versus a blog post, is that the pages on your site are what is construed as cornerstone content for those different services. So I would challenge everybody to kind of review their services. And if you have – [LAUGH] the second part to that is – 17 menu items, you’ll probably need to reduce that down to, I would say, no more than 7, but boy, if you can bring it down to 3 to 5, you’re really sitting pretty because those are probably the two biggest things I think people can actually literally change today.

Joe Sanok: Yeah, I would… that last point of menu items. We reduced that with Mental Wellness Counseling from 7 down to 4, and really under the new click here, that’s where you drop down. You see, okay if you are searching for the specialty, then there is 10 different specialties, but it’s all underneath there. Whereas start counseling, that’s always seen, it’s a bright kind of orangish-salmon color. So it really stands out on the website.

[CONCLUSION] Joe Sanok: So, we are going to have tons of time tomorrow talking all about SEO, podcast interviews, how to get more traffic to your website, building out that funnel. All of these episodes, they are going to be over at www.websiteroundtable.com. It’s within Practice of the Practice. We are going to be updating that page from our last website roundtable and we are going to be putting these on there, so you can listen to all three episodes in that one spot.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast as well if you want to keep getting awesome content like this. We are also going to have links to all three of these guys, their website information, extra kind of tutorials from www.websiteroundtable.com also. So thanks so much for letting us into your ears and into your brain. We will talk with you guys tomorrow.


Joe Sanok: Well, thanks so much for joining us. If you want to get access to next level practice, go on over to www.practiceofthepractice.com/invite. You can read all about it – about community or what’s happening. It’s amazing to see what’s happening in that group. We have had people this month say they got their very first client because of the group, that they are ranking higher in Google because of what they have learned in the group or that they are getting their ideal client at full pay rates. If you want that, join this community. It’s over at www.practiceofthepractice.com/invite. And next time, we are going to be diving into more about websites. Take a look at this clip.


“I want to start with the caveat that as a therapist I think you have got to make a lot of important decisions on the way in regards to what am I going to do myself to build this business and what is better left to get some help with.”


Joe Sanok: So to hear what happens next time and to hear all about how to get new clients through your website, you are going to have to listen to episode two of the website round table. Thanks for letting me into your ears and into your brain. See you.


Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for their intra music. Also thanks to John Clarke, Perry Rosenbloom and Jaime Jay. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It’s given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering any legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.

[MUSIC] [END OF PODCAST 00:42:17.26]

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