[JOE SANOK]
This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 715.

I’m Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I hope you are doing amazing today. If you’re just starting a practice so glad you’re here, we have so many resources to help you. Over at pillarsofpractice.com we have a full e-course for you that’s totally free around how to start a practice. There’s checklists in there, there’s these eight-minute experts where people that we interview for eight minutes, we set a timer, get you some really fast just videos and trainings in there. We took all these things that you had to individually opt into and put them there for you. Also we’ve got some really great things. If you’re starting or growing a group of practice, we have Group Practice Boss, Group Practice Launch, all those things. You can read about over at practiceofthepractice.com.

You know I used to work in the schools. I did some home-based therapy. I worked for CMH, I worked at the community college for a long time, and it was fun work. It wasn’t that I didn’t enjoy that work, but when I left my full-time job back in 2015 that was a big jump for me. There’s a lot of things I thought through and had I ran numbers after numbers and eventually left that full-time job for private practice and Practice of the Practice and then sold my practice in 2019. So I always love hearing people’s stories around when they leave a job, how they sorted through all the question marks of leaving a job.

Christine Willing is hanging out with us today. Christine is a licensed school psychologist and is the founder and CEO of Think Happy Live Healthy. In 2018, she left her job, working the schools and began her own business with the mission to empower her clients towards change, utilizing psychological therapy movement, and creating a healthy food lifestyle. Today Christine leads a team of 23 therapists on a mission to help others lead happier and healthier lives. Christine, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I’m so glad that you’re here with us.
[CHRISTINE WILLING]
Hi Joe. Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.
[JOE]
I wanted just start with food health. I believe in food health. It’s awesome. Like my 7- and 10-year-old daughters really think through that the other day, my 10-year-old Lucia when she was packing her lunch, she’s like, I think my body needs a kale salad for lunch today and I’m like, oh my gosh, I have arrived. That’s amazing.
[CHRISTINE]
That’s amazing.
[JOE]
I know. We had a smoothie last night and they were like, put more kale in it. I’m like, what is happening? This is amazing.
[CHRISTINE]
So you must be doing something right.
[JOE]
I don’t know. I made a switch like a year ago where I started saying more you just listen to your body more than saying no to things so that they, when they turn 18 or whatever age, they’re going to have to decide that stuff for themselves anyway. So I do limit some sugar stuff, but I think then they’ve noticed that they just feel like junk when they eat junk.
[CHRISTINE]
I mean, healthy eating can be fun. I think a lot of times kids get messages from their parents that you have to eat your broccoli with dinner, but nowadays there’s so many great resources out there to make healthy, eating fun for kids. So that’s a big part of what I’m interested in and what I do with my clients.
[JOE]
Well, and it’s like the way that they made broccoli in the eighties was gross. So it’s like, I didn’t even know I liked asparagus until I started cooking myself. My mom would steam it till it was like dental floss. Of course, I didn’t like asparagus back then. So how did you get into food being part of the way that you view things? I want to talk about you leaving your job and your group practice, but I just that interests me from your bio.
[CHRISTINE]
Yes, definitely. I think it came out of my own journey with food. I think I grew up same thing in the eighties and nineties, just eating Mac & Cheese and whatever my parents threw at me, and I didn’t understand healthy eating at all. I started developing all these chronic illnesses and I was really sick for a long time. I was always managing that, trying to work and it was just too much. I started doing my own research into healthy eating and how it really changed my chronic illnesses also my anxiety. I found that depending on what I ate, it changed how I felt and physical and mental are so connected. So I think I really, I didn’t learn any of this in graduate school being a psychologist. You don’t really talk about these things, but more and more research is being done on them every day.
[JOE]
When you work with your clients or when you work with your staff at the group practice, are there core things that you want to make sure that every client hears or is it more just attracting people that have that same mindset as therapists at your practice?
[CHRISTINE]
Yes, I think all my therapists have this holistic view of therapy that, the name of my practice Think Happy Live Healthy is all about changing our mindset, but also focusing on our lifestyle and our habits. So when we work with clients, we meet them where they’re at, some people might not want to talk about food or might not be ready to talk about food, but we give them that option and that opportunity to do so, and a lot of psychoeducation around food and also movement and lifestyle and habits. So we build it into our everyday work.
[JOE]
Well, take us back a few years when you were working in the schools. What was going on where you decided to start a practice and eventually leave the schools?
[CHRISTINE]
I worked in the schools for about 10 years, so it was a while. I worked in elementary, middle high school. I loved being a school psychologist. I didn’t grow up knowing I wanted to do that, but I did really enjoy the work, getting to help people every day but it quickly got to a point where it was easy to feel burnt out. I was working crazy hours all day, no breaks. They really expect a lot from you and I know anyone else who works at a school, there’s a lot of burnout going on right now. I knew that I wasn’t getting to the root of the issues. Part of being a school psychologist is kids come in and out of your door and you have to put a band-aid on their issues and get them back to class in 20 minutes.

So it’s how quickly and efficiently can you solve the problem at hand? I wasn’t getting to do the psychological work that I really loved involved in empowering clients and changing clients. So I started thinking every day I would drive 30 minutes to, and from my office and I would turn off the radio and just think what else do I want to do in life because I can’t see myself working in a school for 30 more years? So I really did that for six months or so. I started a bunch of things that failed. I remember I started a blog, I started a travel and food blog, I mean I was going all over the place and a lot of things just flopped before I decided I love being a psychologist. I just don’t love being a psychologist in the school.

So I ended up finding a supervisor and getting licensed to work privately, which was another two years. Then after that, I mean I knew right away when I started seeing clients privately that energy, that passion, that inspiration that I had been missing for so long, it was there. I knew that’s what I wanted to do and I wanted to do it on my own the way I wanted to do it. So it was like a really, it was pretty an easy decision. Honestly, I just, you know when you’re doing the thing that you’re supposed to do in life and it was really clear to me. That summer I decided to leave the schools and I opened up my practice and I just thought let’s see what happens. If it fails, I’ll go back to the schools or I’ll try something else. Like I just put myself out there.
[JOE]
Now were you, did you run a bunch of numbers of how many clients you have to see at what rate or, take us through some of those things? Like how did you think through that, because I was, I even created a how to leave your job calculator for Practice of the Practice using the exact formula I use because I ran it all the time.
[CHRISTINE]
Yes. I mean, part of it was, I still had student loans. I had two years left of my student loans. So I ran numbers, if I stayed in the schools, I could pay those back but then you have to factor in your happiness but yes, I quickly realized that I didn’t need a ton of clients to make the same salary that I was making in the schools. I realized I could work 20 hours a week and make the same and there’s really not a ton of overhead when you’re starting a practice. I did have office space. I hadn’t bought my own office space at that point and there weren’t a ton of costs. It was a lot of work and I knew I was going to have to put in a lot of time, but after running the numbers, looking at all the formulas in terms of being your own contractor and paying taxes and I mean, you really have to do all of that, but it’s a no brainer when you’re leaving that a position where the salary isn’t that great. So I knew I could make way more doing this.
[JOE]
When you first started on your own, what was your main focus? How did you get going? How’d you find your first, say 10 clients?
[CHRISTINE]
I will say I was really lucky because I’m located in Northern Virginia right outside DC and that’s where I’d been working as a school psychologist. So I had a ton of built-in connections through the school systems so I really used those connections. I think I got a lot of clients who had worked with me in the schools and then I also started going to all the community events because I really wanted to be part of the community and it’s scary starting out on your own. So I set up the whole tent and the table at every single foster city event I could, handed out cards back in the day. I really wanted to be part of the community and then also building my website. I think that’s the key that really did help me is building my website, getting my SEO up and really utilizing that. So it was pretty easy to gain clients naturally through my connections and then also reaching out to, I made a lot of connections with other doctor’s offices and other practices that were full.
[JOE]
So when did you start thinking about adding clinicians to your practice and how did you think through that? How did you run numbers? Did you maybe do it later than you think you should have? Did you earlier than you think you should have? Take us through your first hire.
[CHRISTINE]
So I think I was about four months in and my wait list was growing and growing and growing. I was like, maybe I should just put up an ad and see if anyone wants to come on board because at that point I had actually bought a space with four offices, not knowing if I would rent them out to other therapists from other companies or if I was going to grow. I didn’t have a direction. I was just seeing what happened. So I ended up running numbers about how much I could pay people. I had negotiated with two top insurance companies to get high rates. I had a pretty good private pay rate. So I knew I could offer people a good amount of money to come work for me and I knew that what I had to offer was flexibility, create your own schedule.

There were a lot of perks. So immediately when I put the post up, I got 20, 25 therapists. Now this was back in 2018. It’s not that easy to hire anymore, believe me, but back then it was pretty easy and I did a lot of interviews. I found this one therapist that we just really connected and she took a huge chance on me. I mean, here I was, this brand-new person I’d only been open a couple months. She had just had a baby and wanted to transition and she was like, yes, I’ll come on board. I’ll try to, we’ll do this. I had no idea if it was going to work or not, but she’s still with me today, so pretty cool.
[SLOW DOWN SCHOOL]
These last few years have been so stressful. So much has hit our businesses, our personal lives, even our ability to work. How often do we get time to genuinely slow down, to reconnect with our bodies, to think about what we’re working on in our businesses and to connect with other people that think like us and want to do big things. That’s what Slow Down School’s all about. Slow Down School is the event for people that are high achievers that want to do big things, grow their practices and big ideas and they don’t want to kill themselves doing it. They want to be smart about where they spend their time. They want to learn to sprint, but they don’t want to kill themselves in the process.

At Slow Down School you’ll be in Traverse City, Michigan on the beautiful shores of Lake Michigan, July 24th through 30th, 2022. At Slow Down School we’re going to spend a few days slowing down, hiking up, I’ll bring a massage therapists and yoga teachers and healthy food and time on the beaches with sunsets and just connecting with other folks like you. Then we’re going to run full tilt towards your business, towards your big ideas, towards your private practice, using all of the skills of Killin’It Camp, sprint types of being able to get so much done in a short period of time.

We’ve seen so many businesses grow and expand and launch as a result of Slow Down School. I would love to join you in that process. Slow Down School tickets are on sale. Now make sure you grab them before the early bird and if you get them after the early bird, that’s totally fine too. We’d love to have you involved with Slow Down School, July 24th through 30th, 2022. Head on over to slowdownschool.com to grab your ticket today. I can’t wait to see you in Northern Michigan.
[JOE SANOK]
Then what were some of the challenges that you took on going to 23 clinicians? Did You just keep on bringing people on or what happened there?
[CHRISTINE]
Growing pains after growing pains? I never wanted to be one of those practices where you grow too quickly or you lose sight of your mission. So it seems like it’s been a lot in five years, but it’s really been a pretty slow process of making sure I had all my systems set up and all my processes in place and making sure that I was hiring the right types of people. I think my business grew very organically. A lot of people that I knew from the schools are now working with me full time. So a lot of school psychologists reached out who I had known for years and years and years. Actually, two people I work with now, they were my supervisors back when I started in the schools. So I think people just natural —
[JOE]
Is it hilarious when your supervisors work for you?
[CHRISTINE]
It’s so weird. It’s so weird. So I think people naturally started reaching out to me and that’s how I found a lot of my therapists. Only recently have I had to really post on Indeed and go through the interview process, but there’s a lot of growing pains. I never thought I would own a business that had this many contractors working with me, but I’m so glad I do because now we offer so many different types of services. I say to my therapist all the time that they’re smarter than I am. I always hire people that are smarter than me, that know different things than me that are skilled in different types of therapies. I love that what we’re able to bring to our community is all these different expertise. We also added testing and evaluations to our practice, we’re about to add a psychiatrist, so just really making, the bigger you grow, if you do it in the right way, you’re still following your mission and your purpose, but you’re able to help people in so many more ways.
[JOE]
How did you maintain the culture and the vibe like as you add people, there’s different dynamics, what are some core things that you did to make sure the vision you had for the practice was still there while also allowing that people add things to the practice to make it even better, so if it’s too singularly focused on what you think, then you may miss out on some diversity. How’d you find that balance?
[CHRISTINE]
I think it was easy at first when I was in person. We were in the office every day and we were connecting and we were collaborating but when the pandemic hit, I worried about that daily and it was a huge struggle because during that 2020 year is when I think I hired about 10 to 12 new people. And people want to come on because of the culture. They don’t want to be on an island all alone. That’s why they’re coming to a group practice. So I brought in things like using a Slack channel, so we could just message each other all day, ask questions. We would do consults. We would ask for resources. We would just check in. We would send funny memes to each other.

I created an intranet site, so something that everyone could post what they were working on, what their specialties were and then we started doing these case consultation groups, these team meetings. I worked on reorganizing so that people had a lead person on their team and everyone wasn’t reporting to me, I wanted to break down the company so it was more structured so people had more support. Then holding a lot of team meetings, unfortunately over Zoom, but doing fun things. Like we had a paint party and we had a meditation expert come in and give us a meditation, just showing people that we are about self-care, we are about community, we are about connection. I think those things are only going to increase in the future. I think this last fall we did a company winery event, so that was a big hit. Yes, I really make it a priority because I think that’s what people want.
[JOE]
Yes, that’s awesome. For someone that’s, say maybe they have a solo practice and they’ve jumped up to adding their first or second hire. So I’m thinking of our Group Practice Launch people that have leveled up from Next Level Practice, they do the six month program with Alison and then they’re entering into group practice with their first couple hires. What advice would you have for them as they become a group practice boss, as they really grow in their group practice ownership? What are a handful of things that they should focus on?
[CHRISTINE]
I think the first thing is do some research and learn some things leading. Being a team leader that’s not something that I went to school for. I read a lot of books. I took a lot of classes. I learned about my leading style and what I wanted it to be like. I also tried to be really authentic to myself and elevate that, so when I do interviews, I try not to just ask a bunch of questions. It’s more of a conversation, more of can you build rapport with me and so understand your hiring process, really elevate the things that you believe are authentic to you and then you’re going to end up finding the right people.

Then I would say, don’t be afraid to try new things. Like when you’re starting to grow bigger and bigger, there are things that you need to learn, like website design, marketing strategies, Google Ads. I mean, there’s just so many different things. So I would take a random weekend every so often and I would just pick one thing that I wanted to learn and that would elevate me to the next level. Then I think take advantage of your community and your connections. I think that’s a big one. For me was when I was growing, I wanted to make sure it was the right people and while I was getting like diversity in what we offered, I was also getting people that underlying had this passion and this energy similar to what I had, that everyone that works for me, they know that they’re doing what they absolutely love. This is the career. They are building the career that they want and I facilitate that in every way I possibly can. I think that was what was authentic to me, is that something I love doing. I love helping people figure out what they were meant to do. So yes, I think just like taking a look at what is it about you, what’s authentic to you and then using that?
[JOE]
That’s so awesome. You were talking before we started recording about how there’s just such a shortage of mental health services and you’re exploring offering ancillary services beyond just therapy. Talk about that decision. Talk about how you’re deciding on what to offer, where to spend your energy in regards to ancillary services outside of the practice.
[CHRISTINE]
So it’s been something I’ve been thinking about for a really long time, but obviously hard to put in motion when you have all these other things you have to do. But lately I’ve decided that I really want to start broadening our reach to the community with all the people on our wait list or all the people that can’t get into therapy, maybe they can’t afford therapy, maybe they don’t have time right now for therapy. It’s what can we be offering to those people before they step in the door? So I’m currently working on some eBooks. I’ve started with one, I have an ADHD starter kit for parents on, if they’re thinking their kids might have ADHD. I’m working on an anxiety one and then I’m also working on doing more consultations with parents in larger groups so that we can help parents understand the resources that are available in schools, outside of schools.

Because I think there’s a big disconnect between kids and children and teens getting diagnosed and then where do they go from there. They’re only taught go to therapy, but there’s so many other resources that are available. So I’m working on putting those together. There’s a lot that needs to be done. It’s just you really have to figure out again what makes you an expert in that area and focus on that. So I’m trying to really utilize what I’ve learned in the school systems and take that what I’ve learned in the private practice and combine those two together. That’s what I want to offer to the community right now.
[JOE]
How do you think through where to spend your time on these things that they may take off, they might not take off? How do you think through that for yourself?
[CHRISTINE]
I do a lot of auditing of my time. I think that’s really important because one of the reasons I started my own practice is because I didn’t want other people telling me how to spend my time. So for me, time is very, very valuable and so I will have all these ideas that I’ll list out. My creative brain never shuts off, but then I really utilize Fridays as my day to be creative. So I work really hard Monday through Thursday, running the business, seeing clients, doing everything that needs to be done and Friday I take off in a way because when I get to be creative, I don’t consider it work. So to me, if I’m spending a day or every Friday a month doing an eBook and no one buys it that’s okay because it helped me in some way. It’s going to help my clinical work. Maybe I’ll present it to my team. I don’t think of that stuff as work. So I guess I subscribe to that belief that if you’re doing things above and beyond you should really enjoy them. So if I enjoy doing it, I’ll put in the time.
[JOE]
Yes. Well, it sounds like it’s sort of like it’s a gamble if it takes off great, but if not, I enjoyed doing it. So there’s not really a loss in it if it doesn’t work out.
[CHRISTINE]
A lot of things have not worked out right.
[JOE]
I mean, seriously. No, I hear you. So my last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?
[CHRISTINE]
I would say that it’s easy to get bogged down in the day-to-day work that we do, like as a CEO and owner putting out fires, fixing things. Sometimes we forget the reason why we are doing this and what our purpose is. So I spoke about this a little bit before, but I think if every practice owner would do an audit of their time, look at how you’re spending your time every day, every week, every month, is it what you wanted? Is it fulfilling your purpose and then create time to do the things that you want to do. I think so don’t get bogged down and really make sure that you’re living out your purpose and you’re making time for it.
[JOE]
That’s so awesome. You have a worksheet for people, one of your PDFs that you’re giving away for free. Tell us a little bit about that and how people can connect with you if they want to hear more.
[CHRISTINE]
So you can connect with me at thinkhappylivehealthy.com. That’s also our Instagram and our Facebook. And I created an ADHD starter kit for everyone who’s listening. They can download it for free. It’s a 10-page guide to ADHD, how to get your child evaluated, what happens after diagnosis, how to request support in the schools. So it’s really awesome for families, parents, anyone who’s thinking about ADHD and what supports are out there.
[JOE]
That’s so awesome. Well, make sure you go download that. And Christine, thank you for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast today.
[CHRISTINE]
Thank you so much, Joe.
[JOE]
I love the balance that Christine has over planning, running numbers, thinking through it, but then also just trying things and not being paralyzed by perfection. A lot of leaving your full-time job or starting a group practice or even entering into doing things outside of the practice like PDFs and e-courses starts with, I’m going to give this a whirl. So go give a few things a whirl. Often we just get stuck in how we do things and me too. I’ll look at my schedule and say, oh my gosh, it’s full of podcasts and consulting and things like that. I love that work, but also I need to create space to slow down and think through, well, what are things that I need to give a whirl to that maybe I don’t have a clear outcome that has to happen, but I’m going to at least step into that space to see if something new could happen?

Really that’s where Slow Down School comes. In this summer we are offering our live event, Slow Down School again, which I’m so excited about. We had to cancel it in 2020 and 2021. It’s happening at the end of July. That’s going to be July 24th through July 30th. The way it works is we have about 20 people or so that fly into Traverse City. We pick you up at the airport, take you out to this amazing place that’s right on the water. It has a river that cuts through the campus. We have an executive chef that comes. We actually had one lady that was vegan that said it was some of the best vegan foods she’s ever had. We had another lady that was on the keto diet, ketosis all week. So I figure if we can do that, I mean, the food is amazing.

They have partnerships with local farmers and the salad bar says these carrots are from Johnson Farms down the road and we grow our own kale. Then we hang out on the beaches. We go for hikes. We have a massage therapist come in both days, a yoga teacher and really genuinely slow down and let our brains just rest. Then on Wednesday, Thursday, and then Friday morning, we run full tilt and sprint towards your big ideas, your private practice, that next level stuff that you’re working with.

If that sounds interesting to you head on over to slowdownschool.com and schedule a phone call with me. I like to make sure every single person is an awesome fit for the group, but it’s also a good fit for you where you’re at with your practice. So if you’re a high achieving therapist that wants to get away, have a little bit of a vacation around other high achieving therapists, this is the exact event for you. So whether you’re growing your group practice or growing some big idea outside of it, this is a perfect fit for you. If you’re a solo practice owner and just getting going, probably coming to Killin’It Camp in the fall would be a better fit than Slow Down School. Again, that slowdownschool.com.

Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. .

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one