Paul Fugelsang is the founder of OpenPathCollective.org. Open Path is a collective of therapists who have generously agreed to provide in-office treatment for $30 to $50 a session. I met Paul Fugelsang when he reached out to me to get coffee. He was vacationing in northern Michigan, I was blown away how much overlap we have in interests!!!
Do you often have to send patients to other clinicians but struggle because you don’t know who to refer them to?
Are you tired of having to tell people that you can’t help them?
Do you feel lost because you don’t know who in your network of colleagues has openings?
Or are you tired of having to do the research to find out who in your network focuses on a certain speciality?
You became a counselor because you wanted to help people live happier and healthier lives.
There’s a new app that’s about to come online that hopes to fix this problem for us. It’s called Flow.
Want the free guide? is called “7 Steps to Easy Networking for the Busy, Introverted Therapist”.
Pop Culture Meet Paul Fugelsang
Paul Fugelsang is the founder of OpenPathCollective.org. Open Path is a collective of therapists who have generously agreed to provide in-office treatment for $30 to $50 a session. Open Path clients pay a one-time membership fee to work with an Open Path therapist at a significantly reduced rate. Because the rate is so low, clients gain back their membership fee after just one session. Open Path is a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization. Many of our therapists also provide sessions online.
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor/therapist in North Carolina. In addition to offering in-person therapy for individuals and couples in Asheville, I offer online therapy through the telephone and Skype. Fluent in Spanish, I work with both English and Spanish speakers.
A long-time meditation practitioner, I received my Masters degree in Contemplative Psychotherapy from Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. In addition to my private practice, I am also the founder and executive director of Open Path Psychotherapy Collective (www.openpathcollective.org).
I have been actively working in the mental health community since 1996. I work with couples and adult individuals. My specialities include helping people who are suffering from anxiety, symptoms of depression, or those who have experienced some sort of trauma. I believe in helping my clients become more mindful of their experience, which enables a greater tolerance for a variety of emotions. My clients typically tell me that while a sustained, constant sense of happiness remains beyond their reach (it is never my goal), after working together the hard times become more manageable, and life in general feels more workable. It’s my belief that the more we can allow ourselves to become safely acquainted with that which is not pleasant, the more we are able to fully experience joy in our lives.
What you’ll discover in this private practice podcast:
Joseph R. Sanok, MA, LLP, LPC, NCC
Joe Sanok is an ambitious results expert. He is a private practice business consultant and counselor that helps small businesses and counselors in private practice to increase revenue and have more fun! He helps owners with website design, vision, growth, and using their time to create income through being a private practice consultant. Joe was frustrated with his lack of business and marketing skills when he left graduate school. He loved helping people through counseling, but felt that often people couldn’t find him. Over the past few years he has grown his skills, income, and ability to lead others, while still maintaining an active private practice in Traverse City, MI. To link to Joe’s Google+ .
Podcast 101 | Sliding Fee Scales And Brain Evolution An Interview With Paul Fugelsang[0:00] Music. [0:29] So glad you are here to practice of the practice podcast the second hundred episodes did you like that last episode with christina my wife.
It was so awesome you know the actual creation of it wasn’t that awesome as you can hear in that episode.
That was one of our toughest days of parenting mean both of my daughters were kinda cranky from camping our youngest usually naps twice a day just would not go down and we were so tired but,
for both of us,
was so invigorating to do that interview and neither is at the beginning but we’re feeling like we wanted to do it but i think that really speaks to just how when you set your mind to something and you call clearly say this is what i’m going to do. [1:14] You can do it you can i force yourself to do it,
so i just wanna tell you a little bit about our sponsor today after i totally transition really awkwardly right there so sorry about that but i want to tell you just a little bit,
about james holster see james reached out to me and used for about a month or two ago just saying hey i just wanna talk to you about an app am looking developing,
and it was told not a sales call who just investigating and learning and kind of getting to know therapists and in regards to an audience that he’s hoping to build around and really useful app,
and so it some questions that i think come to mind for me are maybe you’ve grown to the point where you’re awful practice but you still deeply care about making sure that people,
have the best possible provider that they connected with maybe tired of having to tell people that you can help them,
and if you lost your network of colleagues and keeping track of all those things.
If your tired of doing the research to find out who’s best for a specialty in regards to referrals or insurance panels are medical aid or perhaps there’s other camps that,
you’re looking at growing a practice and you’re trying to get the right attention from people in your state,
so these are kind of the central question that come to mind for me and any of these scenarios really fit,
but he’s looking to develop and so this new app that’s gonna come on-line is hoping to fix many of these problems for us and it’s called flow seven speaking with james about this and we’ve been really talking,
about what is that it is the problem the counselors have that were willing to download an app to help solve. [2:48] And i have been putting together a few things for this as a practice the practice to help you jump start some of these things and to really get lead on it before he launches this app and i’d love for you to be a part of this process to talk with james to. he’s gonna keep in the loop in regards to what flow is and what he’s thinking and it’s really kind of a cool opportunity for us to be able to,
be part of developing an app this could actually be useful for us so it’s just it’s just really amazing to see the creativity of people that are out there.
Today my guest is paul feudal saying and he’s the guy that started open half collective dot org and what i really like about open path collective will before talk about that,
i want to share with you how i met him he reached out to me because he and his wife summer in northern michigan and so we ask you out for coffee,
and we’re just talking about different things that we’re working on and learn more about open path. [4:00] And while we’re talking i just was very clear that he had to be on the podcast because there’s so much that he can provide for us for one open path collective is a really great way to manage sliding fee clients and so,
the idea is that counselors will say i can take one or two people at the thirty to fifty dollar eight it also that helps counselors to get their name out there a little bit more,
hope counselors also to get some exposure and some back and linking but also what i like about our conversation is that paul,
how did he have the idea how did he create a non-profit around it,
i’m headed to go after grants all these different things that are really important to the business and marketing side of launching a website and private practice.
And where things unique about his website is he needs not use two types of client’s needs people that are looking for sliding fee sessions but he also needs counselors that say.
Yes i will take people at a sliding fee rate and so it’s really to walk that line and nowhere to invest your time early on his,
things you learn and i just love all the stuff that paul reveals so without any further ado i give you all. [5:17] Paul cuba saying welcome to the practice the practice podcast extra severe yet fails to have you here.
Pause it doesn’t really great work they’re gonna talk about soon but we had coffee in person he was vacationing up northern michigan so it was great to meet you face-to-face data morsels cafe. [5:35] Yes yes so was your time in northern machine fun. [5:39] And what is the Eiffel my wife’s family has been going there for years such a special place your racket back.
Yeah it was fun have you up here so why don’t we start with just toaster story who are you what do you do in the winter springboard from there. [5:55] Church summons possible saying and i live in asheville north carolina,
i have a small private practice nashville and i’m also the executive director open past psychotherapy connectors which is nationwide affordable mental health care nonprofit.
Yet so open path collective dot org that’s where can your hubby tell me like the vision of how that started to jerk.
As an undergraduate student when i was in grad school should say in boulder colorado where to,
as an intern at a local community counseling center and most of us know these places really well-intentioned people i bought a victorian house with a bunch of.
Bedroom set a converted to practice rooms and is riding my internship and i learned two things during that experience an additional experience working as a minister,
ask one thing that i saw was that they were spending a lot of their time as a non-profit,
ha trying to raise funds to pay for the pipes and to buy new furniture and repair old carpeting and the only thing i learned was sad so often,
these places are staffed by student interns,
seventy five total are and the economic scale can only get the counseling by people who are really brand new to the profession,
set sorry my private practice sister really kicking this is ideas around and realize that with the dawn of the internet and the website that we can actually create a website. [7:33] A website as a place that would be the waiting room waiting receives clients were looking for lower fee thirty and indirect and a therapist or already established in private practice were willing to offer of you therapy.
What edition of that,
there’s always the benefit of the alchemist benefit of having someone who otherwise would not be able to access care,
search for most of us that’s where the benefit of having a sliding scale has ended,
sorry i’m thinking about this i realized what we create a national organization we can also be a place that helps service in private practice,
hit up and wanna talk what kind of benefits the therapists there involved but totally why was it,
important for you to serve the under served cuz i mean not all of us like a given that mind-set the world like to do things happen in your life or did you have mentors help you can i think that we what’s,
what’s the question behind can all of this like what the driver you’re getting laid back here trying to get the good interview me yeah,
you know i care of parents who was constantly and this is constantly talked about in our family the importance of being a member of a community that lives on each other.
And can stay as i enter a little holiday started working in the mental health world and. [9:06] I am myself consistently getting john to working with under served populations and really son economic injustices that affect these people in terms of,
let’s take a picture that it access when i became a professional became an umbrella yeah absolutely,
and i know it from my own parents like my mom has been really active in haiti and i’ve gone with are there three times and.
My and my dad was a school psychologist and also works with people with disabilities and,
my mother in law was special ed teacher and so it’s like when you have that family of origin that supports a making the world better than you found it.
It’s hard to not do this kind of work. [9:48] I completely agree so what about people that maybe haven’t thought this we didn’t have parents that push them into these can altruistic help the world kind of things like how would you,
how would you help them to understand the value of her know what’s going on in counseling through open path. [10:05] You talking about clinicians explanations are the general public meeting most of us probably have a general idea yes we should help people that are under served but. [10:14] Why are you so the economic injustices me what do you see,
maybe educate me and maybe i don’t even know what kind of injustices you see. [10:25] Just cuz your position well so seven thirty questions and there’s,
i would gonna can justices that existed in the afternoon at eight and how to actually talk about these things to people who may not be on board,
that’s a great summer and sometimes i’m a verbal processor in the well get to my question so yes they have those are the two real questions,
what’s the first is the first question is if you get a parent or a that is this is as a community we value the services of psychotherapy turns encouraging,
From extreme circumstances and a well this the practice of wellness if gasoline every value as accumulates and it should be something that we can all access,
he bought of course this is not the case right now and all to austin. [11:23] Because social services are historically and routinely underfunded those systems that and set up to serve people who won the lower end of the economic scale read in the middle of the middle lower end of the economic scale which is really what open past,
decline the gas works with the systems that and set up our on our are very underfunded,
and as such not very high quality system is a practitioner side again and again in my private practice the injustices of not being able to refer somebody,
to what you’re gonna station with eric at the yeah i know in my own,
internship thinking about you know when i was that the family services place they worked yeah it was mostly in turns or is people that. [12:13] They just had the retired side didn’t really know if they wanted to stick around and non-profit or not like it wasn’t these high achieving counselors you know often times those that could you with me,
jump to private practice and they wouldn’t sticker and not that means if you work at a nonprofit your bad clinician.
But it seems that oftentimes the way this even causes by hiring people that are at the beginning of their career and so.
So then you have this idea that you should do something about it,
and that’s why i think a lot of a lot of counselors listen right now my table yeah i have great ideas but like what do i do how do i actually launch something like open path clock,
give or whatever this world-changing idea is so what did you do with the idea,
to take a be on this idea well the idea was just an idea as recently as three years ago.
Yeah so to the class of us it’s been quite a blur since in three years we,
i cleaned the organization got a website going to do cross crowdfunding campaign to get the website going so when you say you got the organization with the structure of the organization,
so we find one c three nonprofit but before we became our own stand alone non-profit,
we found a fiscal sponsor which is another nonprofit who takes in people with it is like mine and says hey we’re gonna practice and the hours,
our tears determination sure seeing someone has an idea that can stop one is you could find a local five a one c three. [13:48] Oh
Four hundred a local or international so the one that i worked with was is an organization called the foundation for excellence in mental health care and the mac dot work,
no based out of the northwest and they’re doing a lot of great working one of the things that they are doing is sponsoring smaller musicians snow,
innocence and need to be running passing and we felt like we register your ground we stand on the camera profit wow okay see find someone that can incubate.
You than file your paperwork you imagine have to find a board to oversee that youngest yourself so and then you get the website going.
So did you use any of the crowd find the website so yeah so we had no money.
Hello and what is actually getting worse i yeah i did a lot of people do these days i can’t find the website and like a lot of people i don’t have much success in your house.
It was this is back in two thousand thirteen so. [14:53] He’s things were more new to us than they are today but still a lot of people you know running for them so my aunts etc and asking for money on facebook but,
to the generosity of my friends and loved ones i was able to raise about seven thousand dollars and then the foundation came in and offer ten thousand on top of that,
what is seventeen thousand dollars we had just enough to build a really high quality website and get our opening expenses taking care,
anything that you learn through that crowd funding cuz i’ve i always see friends there doing things and it’ll be like there at five percent of their goal,
weather and i don’t want you to stress or because i actually ran another one last years with the thought that a first come from getting even have anything to show for,
so last year we had thousand over a thousand tears signed on connected over thousand clients and has organizations don’t actually producing and it was a similar thing where is like pulling teeth your ass,
and it was it on the double,
task asking friends for money for a second time hands and it got to the point where it was like yeah this,
i know a lot of people are doing it and some people hit the jackpot have a lot of success raising money for related organizations black figured out back,
yep so for your right now it’s just not a good business model to fundraise. [16:25] Not for me yeah so if so how have you guys found phones is to sustain everything serve so we.
We applied for some local grass western north carolina replace which have been extremely helpful on top of that we have a membership fee that we charge our clients and the member fee is forty nine ninety nine and,
we replaced it is the and ss.
This is been the really the backbone which is allowed us to stay in business and take care of our expenses in. [17:00] In terms of the fee some people i raise and eyebrow saying hey like your,
talking about putting those heat therapy and you’re getting clients with a fifty dollar membership fee off the bat what’s up with that it’s a reasonable question to be honest if we were we received a million dollar endowment tomorrow st will be lowered,
i believe that twenty five dollars that will be eliminated in the reason is that we see the cs apply it,
what we really wanna do is pass qualified referrals to a therapist people who are gonna take the work seriously people who are not reaching out to paris on a whim because it only cost thirty dollars a session so. [17:44] We really sick she has a commitment yet ticket taking a processors will and i can see how,
by doing that you know if your saying you’re gonna have to pay for the counseling it then showing up are you,
yeah we really like it and you like the idea of being a class so that when somebody miami is a forty nine dollar seats,
what they’re doing is allowing somebody in san francisco to be able to access affordable thirty yeah,
yeah and if your back on.
Buy by the non-profit then you guys and be able to sustain over the long haul either so it’s open exactly,
so it’s in the works isn’t so a client find your website they pay the forty nine ninety nine then what happens after that,
some classified website and put in your zip code to find a service in your area where is lunch with fifteen hundred over fifteen hundred dollar is signed on around the country we still waiting for,
north dakota in delaware,
oh c’mon article in delaware who’s gonna win this one that’s the best we have a forty eights on it so you think there is a clinician that wanted to fill up,
the case load and not the card or delaware that they would have the whole market for that state three over this collective a what if they did line work as well,
so that it up to work in city,
that okay so north dakota in delaware jump on board i think that would be awesome if because of this podcast you got all fifty states and i believe what is the. [19:17] So if you’re not the card and dollar and you sign up for open path collective i want you to,
send me an email and i will give you fifteen minutes of free consulting if you’re the first one so i will throw that out to try to get their ticket in delaware on your map.
Hey jarvis and no problem so anyways so the client doesn’t use a turn fines are a listing of therapists in the area,
let us use their darkest so you seen a lot of low key places is kind can even choose their therapists and of course we know how important that is in the process,
it is so important to find the right fit so he said not only can you choose your therapist but after you see that therapist if it doesn’t work out and decides not to rent that you can see anybody else without paying this again.
Your life time member one ticket so that is not working and you’ll re occurring for you to one time fee,
one time lifetime membership wow okay so that and it really makes a reasonable if you think about it they’re gonna,
maybe a counseling off and on throughout their lifetime that we have people who sign on in two thousand thirteen,
it says move to another part of the country in the right place and heating up to my member number they want to see if interest while okay so then from the clinician side. [20:32] The sum of the brand clinician i listen to this podcast to go over to open path collective dot org and what’s their experience it’s,
so try to make the sign up process for both clinicians and clients as easy as possible so it’s all done on-line,
we have an online application for therapist is pretty simple it is astro some basic information about a service where they are and also have a practice. [21:00] From there we go there is to send us a copy of their license weather provisional license for the registration for in the state that doesn’t require a license and a copy of their liability insurance,
once you get that your view everything is alex gave me center is that log in credentials usually within forty eight to seventy two hours lol,
and then they can set up their own profile page is spent a lot of time on the design of the website.
Jonathan looks really getting out it just looks really good yeah it’s awesome yeah and there’s no see it also that there is some like you know some of the other sites out there that are talking about she’s for a good looking for about it yeah.
And then you said some benefits for the clinicians be on just getting some clients what other things have you seen clinicians get out of being on your site.
Church so what i did in the very beginning,
when i really want this to be an organization that supports therapist on her brand new to the field but also people looking around for a long time and just looking to do,
of course i realize sliding scale approach,
when i start doing was right international organizations that support our president work with therapists introducing open path introducing our machine and sing it with a partner and the response was really wonderful,
restaurants are so we have handy and not even sure display probably over fifteen. [22:32] Turner’s that will work with you offer your free services are just answer therapist said a name if you secretary network or offers and nine dollar annual subscription to a therapist,
and they also offer discounts after see it’s,
seven thirty dot net routinely office after this free training videos for certain amount of time on,
we’ve had accountant signed sign on like it’s there is discounts off of his services lol to think,
not only are you how,
people that are connection or that are me counseling be also helping these conditions become even better clinicians so that the quality of care that comes through your website it’s even higher which itches like a win for everybody,
very nice to look at this yeah wow okay so so what’s next for you guys are you can hit a certain number or g of new products are ideas or just sustain like what’s with next,
well it’s been my it’s in my.
Stop this entire time that we need to grow statically and responsibility i think there’s some people who motor model and it got really excited about it and encourages us to,
set car seat on the accelerator and strong,
goes faster as far as we can inch people are saying you need to be a twenty thousand terrorists within the next three years and i am,
that’s not really where i am with this i’m really really happy so far with the level of gross. [24:05] You got fifteen hundred dollar to sign on and just over two years and was connected over two thousand clients to affordable care so it feels like you’re doing good work and we’re growing at a rate of seals.
It feels manageable met saying just important to me as an executive director so i would like to just keep our numbers growing we typically get,
to renew therapist applications a day and working acting at this point about hundred forty two hundred fifty new clients amount,
so not ready to stop the growth and tell and i’m really happy with some of the slow and find anything on the slow boat really studying washer share,
well one thing i forgot to ask from the condition perspective is what is the commission like what are we supposed to do if they sign up to they have to see a certain number of people month or is there certain late that they have to take care. [24:59] Translate that a little bit yes will we invite our conditions jewelry astor conditions to see and minimum of one. [25:06] At a rate that ranges between thirty and fifty dollars a session and after negotiated rate.
So when i recommend a therapist is that they have a conversation with a client the same way the within setting the scene for any other lower see.
Can’t client just within the rubric of that great between thirty to sixty some terrorist financing listen i’m only gonna go as,
that’s fine with us is it to make information readily available to claim the assets in case the client cancelled sure sedan,
did someone say i found you on open path collective and they just call or is there a way to track it.
Yes i fill the registration form on our website since the state,
and once we get that he sends but the therapists and the client information saying he was made this connection,
it was in a client member number with the therapists information to get in touch crash and what we do is because we don’t expect there to see wheeling spec services the eminem of one client.
Yes i have seen at this point fifteen or twenty,
get well over the last two years when i start eminem wanna client someone that there is has one client if they wanna stop there they can change the designation of the profile indicate no longer accepting new open past clients,
once i finish work with that client and i can change the reservation open themselves up singer catcher so,
so really i mean it would come through the website the referral and the connection and all that and it’s. [26:39] It’s winter okay so so the average clinician like what should they know not just about me your work but like,
i’m sure there’s things which inform you that even be on just open path collective what are some maybe trans you’re just seeing in either healthcare and helping reduce poverty any sort of just taking a big picture macro things that you’re noticing.
In your possession is another interesting question hat.
Search up you know we have is the day that time sealed about whether or not,
things are getting worse in general for our collected state of wellness of things are getting better grades a lot of information on both sides heating was a parent and especially with the internet,
ask is that is that were much more clued in to the fact.
Dad that suffering exists in our communities and our families and our individual lives and.
That’s up from a nap exacerbated by a fast pace move of technology and society,
when is good argument to say that but it is just based on how quickly everything is involving and whether or not our minds are actually capable of barley is quick and,
can i think that is a heightened state of anxiety,
that combined with the site that because of the internet because of other factors there is now more widely accepted than it’s ever been the stigmatize it is you know. [28:18] He hasn’t gone away certainly it’s still there. [28:22] I think since i am practicing the last ten years it’s gone down getting all these factors together.
Hi really opens the door to more people incorporating therapy but as a first date,
and as well as practice so if more people are coming into the tent and it makes sense that we need to have her services available to me tickets. [28:44] So i like how you’re talking about weather brings can keep up with can that piece of technology on tell me more about that cuz that sounds really fascinating.
Well we been around as a species for over a million years.
That’s not right that sounds right don’t that is and ends.
Up until what hundred and sixty and seventy years ago universal life over electricity right.
So we have in his brains of taking very long careful time to volunteer what they are today and then on the sudden the world is change.
I mean since the industrial revolution of delicious chains and such a rapid pace that would just make sense for prince to be for parents just. [29:34] She is so much confusion about what’s happening of course confusion always create things it yeah so in your own life cuz i mean running a website i know in running tracks the practice i’m looking at a screen.
Quite a bit during the day more than what i think my natural preferences but what are your own habits that,
for you just help you feel stable well just figure this the kinda habits to help you feel that balance each,
find it comes in waves in terms of my engagement with the internet on my phone and there are times when i last conscious and usually those times i am much more likely to the internet and my phone and of course it your,
create a cascade of the problems,
is the mormon we need to come from what’s happening around us the last time they spend outside and to me it makes sense that and we’re gonna go nasa grill,
yeah what so for me it’s really important to do simple things like,
go for walks and instead of taking my son with me with my phone outside and my phone inside. [30:47] Answer me to do simple things like turning off the computer and walking away from.
What is that sometimes i feel like i’m really still have that when my license like it’s nice and bouncing on my nerves system as well-regulated.
Other times it’s like it becomes this the compass transitional object acting unconscious beliefs to make this year better,
and that we’re using the internet or technology to regulate your assistance and it’s not sustainable right months interesting i found myself,
in this light color loop thinking that if i get these females done then i’ll spend more time with my daughter.
Why i’m doing one with my daughter and so if i just set the phone down just took that time with my daughter,
and then those e-mails i did when she’s not around then that would give me actually more time with my daughter rather than using the phone to have more time i just was this terrible line of thinking where.
I just had to say now i’m dead right now like put your stuff away and who cares if there’s. [31:51] Can the record i think an unfortunate consequence of all this technologies that is made becoming scattered.
So the state or scatters so much more isn’t easy access yeah yeah and,
if you had natural tendencies towards like add or after tendencies towards any of those things that just can’t magnified as well.
Yeah so it every counselor in the world were listening right now paul what would you want them to know well i will be going to check out our website,
and see what they think and go from there um certainly not in a place where i want to twist anybody’s arm through were alley set to sign up to our sight words off of the counseling,
not happy with everyone having different genre than their practices and how they work in listening to tracks them great,
it’s not a straight also and their play if there is a sound rca and decided i don’t want to be a therapist,
water sir clients to us this is really one of the girls was to create a place for therapists who can afford to take my lower few clients,
choc squares monogamous for cloths and again that website is open path collective dot org and leveling to that in the show notes as well.
Will call think so much for taking some time out today to chat about your website and wellness and technology and bring evolution and all these fun things looking forward to seeing you and your appear in traverse city again or. [33:22] I come down to asheville please come show you have in it says i no like between you and allison and jean all these people that are down there,
it’s super awesome to you know think about coming to asheville having friends there been there before but. [33:38] We may have been in the same restaurant at the same time together and see what it’s. [33:45] Music. [34:11] So much for joining me today look.
The next hundred episodes with you as well i love hearing from all of you and the action that you’re taking it through your private practice you guys are just doing such an awesome job so fun to just hear about your progress.
Introvert and even got insurance great steps also that you can get involved with little to the creation of this app so that you can have a voice and it can really.
You can also open have collected got word thingy so much for being on the show you’re awesome and all the work you’re doing awesome.
You as an audience keep it up keep up the hard work take action don’t just assume what your hearing will curse your hands after consuming it but.
Just consume podcasts content take some action take some small steps i’ve watched a video recently where i was talking about.
Five minutes every day if you get that three times a day to five minutes and it has but ninety one extra hours a useless piece of extra work and productivity per year.
Imagine that it’s down to the five minutes i said i mean even in creating a podcast i’ll make the intro and spend the five minutes ten minutes to an intro,
i’ll do the interview i’ll do this back and. [35:39] All between things that i’m working on so i didn’t that idea that we have to clock causes huge amounts in working on your taxes that stepsisters the. [35:50] Stop being paralyzed mentioned starting some actual reviews looking for the results because. [35:56] Music.