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[JOE]:
Are you still doing your own billing? What a waste of time. You could be doing counseling or any of the other things that you’re really, really good at. My friends over at Practice Solutions are amazing at billing. They’ve collected millions and millions of dollars on behalf of their clients; counselors just like you. Katherine and Jeremy, the owners, are this amazing couple that has built such a crazy awesome team. A team that will go after the bills, that will get them collected, and you only pay if they collect. As well, they can help you with credentialing. Take this off of your plate, put your time into something that really matters. I want you to head on over to practicesol.com and reach out to them, that’s practicesol.com, and let them know that you heard about it on the Practice of the Practice podcast.

This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 489.

Well, today’s episode is part of a series all with Killin’It Camp speakers. So, this year, Killin’It Camp is going to be completely online, we have over 20 speakers, we have it all getting recorded, assuming that technology doesn’t act silly on us, and we have some killer deals from Therapy Notes, Brighter Vision, and other folks during Killin’It Camp. So, in early October, we’re going to be having Killin’It Camp and you can come live to those or, if you get a ticket and you want to just pop in, pop out, they’ll get recorded for you as well. And so, for only $95 you can get access to all of these speakers, all of the recordings, all the bonuses. Gotta head on over to killinitcamp.com. These are just a couple of the speakers that I’m having here on the podcast, but we’re having over 20 speakers. It’s gonna be amazing. We have three tracks; one track is called Pillars of Practice, these are short-form, TED Talk-type talks that are 25 minutes long, they’re on very clear, particular things of private practice. The other types are 55 minutes long, and those are How to Scale a Practice, so that’s gonna be all-around group practices and expanding and scaling your practice. And then we also have the Multiple Streams of Income track. And the thing about this is, you don’t have to choose between the tracks. We’ve set it up that only one session is going at a time. We have one login that you can pop in, pop out wherever you can catch the talks. So, we really want it to be accessible to you. Again, it’s only $95, so head on over to www.killinitcamp.com and you can learn all about the speakers that will be there. We can’t wait for this. So, without any further ado, here we go.

Well, today on the Practice of the Practice podcast, we have Billy and Brandy Eldridge. They are the brains behind the Beta Male Revolution podcast, they are friends, they are founders at Killin’It Camp, they came last year, and they’ve been on the podcast. This is time number three within just a few months, so welcome back Billy and Brandy.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. Do we get a jacket like Saturday Night Live? After you’ve been on so many times, you get this jacket?

[JOE]:
Yeah, I would have to see who is at the top. I think, probably, Perry Rosenbloom might be at the top.

[BILLY]:
Oh, we’re coming for you, Perry.

[JOE]:
Yeah. You got a sprint going on here. So, I am so excited to have you back. You’re gonna be speaking about Podcasting 101 at Killin’It Camp. We’re doing this whole series with a bunch of the speakers; we’ve got over 20 speakers that are going to be at Killin’It Camp in three different tracks. I’m interested, you guys could talk about so many different things and you chose Podcasting 101. What was it about podcasting that you thought like, “That’s really what we want to offer to the community at Killin’It Camp this year”?

[BILLY]:
Well, for me, this is Billy, it’s been our biggest investment we’ve ever made as a couple and, I think, starting out, just, it’s something we’re passionate about – creating content and creating meaningful content – and it’s what our lives revolve around right now. So, you know, other people that want to come on that journey and kind of learn from some of the things we’ve done right and done wrong. We would love to take that with them.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I’m interested in maybe some of the phases you’ve gone through, because it’s been fun as a consultant to be able to notice different phases from kinda when you’re first starting, to your first couple of recordings, to now, like, after your launch… maybe walk through some of those phases, the emotions, the kind of back-and-forth between the two of you. Like, walk us through what that looks like.

[BRANDY]:
I think I know that you may be alluding to… I think, you know, we started off just scared and then excited at the same time, and at Killin’It Camp, I think we felt very inspired to be around just a cohort of people that believe in you and know you can do it, and you’ve got, like, this very high when you’re there, and so, we left just feeling empowered and that we could do this, and then got back to it and started to feel overwhelmed and inexperienced. And that’s when, you know, we got to speak with you and your beautiful team and how they kind of helped us through it. I think we’ve shared before, but we’d share again that Billy and I got in our biggest fights and still continue to have disagreements about how to do certain things and what it should look like and really having to go back, like, even recently, we had to sit down and say, “Okay, what is our vision for this? How do we see this moving forward?” because your advice that you gave us in the beginning was, you know, “Let it evolve, it’s going to change.” And so, when we saw these evolutions over the past year of where we started, what we were doing, what we thought would happen, and what actually happened, you know, you predicted it, and so we’ve had to stop and take a minute and reassess along the way of what this looks like in the future. But I think we’ve been through every emotion and we’ve felt, you know, great and powerful and felt very much like we’ve made fire and created something great, and then at other times, we’re like, “What the hell are we doing? Like, we’re idiots. We shouldn’t be doing this.” I don’t know if that answers your question.

[JOE]:
Well, no. And I think that what’s been really cool about seeing Cohort One of our Done for You folks is, now with Cohort Two and then future people we work with, it’s even easier to kind of predict those emotions because I think initially until you kind of really nail, like, “what’s the message?” and “who are we talking to?” and “what’s the pain and transformation we’re helping take them through?”. It feels like, who am I to talk? Because you don’t even know what you’re talking about or deciding as, like, that main hook? And then it’s sort of like when you decide, okay, we sketched out the first five episodes, and to hit record for that first one, the apprehension that a lot of people get through and then, on the other side of it, at least what I’ve noticed and maybe you felt this way or not, was, whoa, like, I do have something to say. It took a little bit to get there, but now that I’m through a couple of episodes, this is really fun to think about these things we really care about in the world, being able to now have a platform to talk about them and dive into them.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s like Brandy said, it’s been full of excitement, fear, a lot of vulnerability hangovers post-recording, and then it going live and thinking back over, “Oh my gosh, I really put that out there and I said that.” But the podcast, for me, has been a structured way to help me do my own work because you really have to stay on your toes, and I guess the biggest fear is being a hypocrite and coming on here and selling a bunch of stuff I don’t believe in myself instead of staying true and authentic, and making sure that the things we talk about we live has really caused me to sit down and look at my own life. So, as the podcast grows, I grow. So, it’s like you’re getting more bang for your buck because you’re not just doing a podcast, it also causes a lot of internal reflection, looking at your own life; who do I want to be and what message do I want to put out in the world?

[JOE]:
Yeah, and I feel like, also, a podcast gives you a chance to reach out to people you, in regular everyday life, would have no business reaching out to. Are there any guests that, for you, you just personally kind of freaked out when they said yes?

[BILLY]:
That would have been probably Nadia Bolz-Weber. She’s a New York Times bestselling author, and she’s a bit controversial in some of her content, and especially here in the south, and we were excited and scared to talk with her and the topic she was going to cover on faith and sexuality and deconstruction of faith ideas. But we were so grateful and overwhelmed and just nerve-racked before it started.

[BRANDY]:
And after.

[BILLY]:
And after.

[BRANDY]:
We did the interview, and that was one, Joe, that we never thought we would get her on. We figured she’d say no, like, a lot of the other people had said no, and she said yes.

[BILLY]:
And she said, “I say no to probably 95%”, but Brandy had written a letter, and she’s like, “Heck, I’ll do it.”

[BRANDY]:
And then it wasn’t one of our best interviews, like, we were so, like, I was fangirling the whole time, like, couldn’t believe it. We were trying to, like, you know, be involved, and ask the good questions, and it did not go as well as we thought.

[BILLY]:
Joe, I was gonna come out the gate with this awesome question, and I thought it was going to set the tone for the whole interview, and I just come out and I lay the question out and it just goes dead silent. And after about five seconds, she goes, “Was that a question?” And I thought, “I’m gonna cut that out. I’m going to get rid of it.” But you know what? We did an intro and I said, I’m leaving it in. This is raw, vulnerable. It was painful, but it ended up going into something beautiful. And when you say I get to talk to people I would have no other access to or business talking with, we’ve had conversations with some of the most beautiful people in the world because of the podcast. It’s been such an awesome experience.

[BRANDY]:
We’ve also had some duds. I mean, we’ve had some duds that we were kind of like, wow, we thought they would be a lot different when they had the microphone on, and they were just the opposite, like, they didn’t come alive and they weren’t electric like they were before the interview. Like, you know, you get on there and you’re talking to them like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And you have, like, a really good rapport with them and then you hit record and they’re like, “Hello.”

[JOE]:
Yes.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah.

[JOE]:
You know, I find it interesting when there’s those kinda undiscovered people that just blow my mind. And you know, it’s super fun to have people, like, I remember Rob Bell was someone that I followed for years, and when I had him on the podcast, I was just like you guys were with Nadia, and I’m sure if I listened back to that I would just cringe at myself. But, you know, there’s also those people that maybe you come in with pretty low expectations and just knock your socks off. And you’re like, the world needs to hear this person and I get to be a part of amplifying this person’s message.

[BILLY]:
Yeah.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, we had one with our specialist, that enneagram specialist, Jackie Coban, and we just kind of hooked up with her on some sort of Facebook podcast thing, and we talked to her beforehand and she was pretty cool. And then we get on with her and I was blown away with her. I’m like, how does everybody in the world not know who she is? And she was one of those surprises that, I had never heard of her, no one had really heard of her and man, she was, like we said, just magical, electric when she got on.

[JOE]:
Yeah, and I think that just being able to position yourself as helping launch these people. When you’re first getting started, you know, you have a few hundred listens per episode and then over time, it starts to grow. And, you know, I look at some of these companies, you know, like Practice Solutions, who, when I met Jeremy and Catherine, it was just the two of them, and I just talked to him, you know, this last week, I think they have over 30 billers now, and to have been a part of saying, “These people are doing great work for therapists to outsource their billing and I genuinely like them and believe in them” and, you know, we have mutual kinda beneficial overlapping interests, too, where, if they’re successful, I’m successful, and vice versa. And so, to start to grow that over time through a podcast, to be able to go out of, just, that one-on-one work is, it’s so exciting personally, but then also the business side of it starts to develop, especially when you, kind of, like, you guys signed up to do another year of podcasting with our help and support. So, just thinking about, “Okay, we have 48 more episodes that we’re supporting you in and, like, diving in, like, how do we take this to the next level?” What are you hearing from either your audience? What are you hearing from, like, each other? What kind of discussions are you guys having in regard to monetizing the podcast? Because we teach you, you know, fall in love with the pain and the people, you’re kind of building that audience, and then, you know, once it starts to grow, that’s where we talk a little more monetization. Like, what are you guys dreaming about in regard to monetization? How are you thinking through that? What are you hearing from your audience?

[BILLY]:
So, I would say our hopes and dreams that it becomes something that monetizes itself in a way that lets us have a more intentional life and more time with each other. That’s what it’s all about. And so, like any business, it’s got to be a labor of love, and there’s that first part where you’re doing all the groundwork, and it takes a lot of energy, and a lot of effort, with minimal return. But I think, you know, with most normal businesses, you know, they say about three years, I think podcasting will be a little bit quicker, but content is king right now, and if you’re not creating it, you’re falling behind. And I really believe the world’s getting to a place where people want to know your Facebook, your Instagram handle, what’s your LinkedIn, and I think they’ll start asking, if you have a business, well, what’s your podcast? And it is kind of like a brand and a stamp, and creating that takes a lot of energy in the beginning so, in monetizing it, it is listening to our audience, finding out what they want; we may think things are great ideas, but having y’all’s system and y’all’s feedback, we’ve created a way to get that feedback in and find out what people want to hear. What do they like more? What catches more attention than other things? And it may not be what we necessarily thought was going to take off, it may be another thing, and so we go in that direction and really look to meet our audience where they are, in the hopes of creating something that will begin to monetize itself in a way that allows us to live a life we’ve always wanted to live.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I think that systemization of that process to validate things before you put all this time and energy into, say, an e-course or membership community or whatever, you know, to just be like, do people even want this from our community? So, to have those early opt-ins, to have webinars, to see if people show up and if they don’t, then to say, well, we have a disengaged audience, so we have to focus on that before we even launch any product, otherwise, we’re going to spend all this time building a product only to have crickets, and nobody wants to do that.

[BILLY]:
Well, and we’ve had to do that pivot, you know. We thought, in building the e-course, it was just going to be a slam-dunk, and it kind of went quiet. And so, we had to realize, okay, where do we go from there? And the way that we’re set up, as a couple who does a podcast, it’s based on kind of an esoteric concept, how do we monetize that? Because it’s not like we’re selling ‘How to build a practice’ or, you know, ‘How to wash cars’ or ‘How to do this one specific thing’, it’s more of an existential internal thing, so maybe our audience would like more of, you know, one-on-one consulting interaction with us or conferences or a three-day workshop, and so we’re looking at things like that and we are having to kind of pivot and see, you know, what will work and how do we get our message out there? And I think the biggest deficit people deal with is just being obscure, and people having something to give the world but no way to get it out into the world, and podcast gives you a way to do that.

[BRANDY]:
And I think Joe said it, too – a lot of times we get on here and we think we don’t have anything to say, but then we find out we do. And that’s what we’ve heard from our audience is, we get up there and we think we’re just failing and fumbling, and then someone will say something like, “I really enjoyed this episode, it helped me here” and you start to think, maybe I do know a little bit of what I’m talking about, maybe I am carrying a conversation that people need to hear. And I think that’s part of it, too, is really believing in yourself that you do have something the world needs to hear.

[JOE]:
And I think that the world needs to hear, but even to think through, you know, sometimes, you’re like, “What’s original about this?” and to even just name things people are thinking and say, you know, you’re not alone, we as a couple deal with getting in fights, we as a couple deal with these things, and, you know, to the podcasters, especially when you have a couple that’s doing a podcast, it may feel like you’re just living your life with a microphone, but, like, what’s unique about that? But then for someone else to say, “Oh, my gosh, I see myself in Billy and Brandy, and I don’t feel as alone now, and I want to kind of hear how they sort through this in a healthy way, rather than, like, reality TV.” I mean, maybe they want to see your dirty laundry a little bit, but it’s like, to just be able to normalize some of, just, the toughness of marriage and raising kids and having creative ventures together.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, and I think that’s our message. When we started doing this, we didn’t realize that we were being open and vulnerable, and we would have a lot of people who still say it, “I can’t believe you guys said that”. “I can’t believe you guys put that out there”. “I can’t believe you talked about that”. And we were like, well, we didn’t realize that we were doing anything different than what most people do. But I guess that’s what our message is, just being open and honest and transparent in that. It is a little reality TV, but it’s not, because it’s just us having conversations that we think people relate to, and that’s not really difficult for us.

[JOE]:
I guess, and with some podcasters locally, it’s really hard to get local people to listen, and for other people, local people listen to them. Have you found that your local audience people are listening in? And if so, is that weird to know that your neighbors might be listening to, like, you talk about it?

[BILLY]:
Yes, yes, and yes. I think, because of the nature of our podcast, and that we do get vulnerable about our own relationship, there is a bit of, you know, people get to peek in our blinds and see into our life, and so, there has been an influx of local people, but it’s been the strangest thing. I thought it would have been people around my age, but we talk about addiction and difficulty in marriage and things like that, and I’ve had people come up to me in Academy on a down day when I thought, “Why on the world do I have a podcast? This is such a stupid idea”, you know, that, just, shame and beating myself up. And somebody will stop me in line and say, “Hey, I listened to this episode and it really encouraged me. My former husband was an alcoholic…” and just go into a story, and because I’ve opened my life up, they open theirs up, and we have this moment in the middle of Academy where we get to share something I wouldn’t have shared with someone in the world otherwise.

[JOE]:
Wow, that’s cool. It’s so, I mean, even still, for me when I meet people that are listeners, like, it’s weird, you know, it’s weird that people take time out of their day, and I get that there’s value, I get that, I see these numbers, but when you actually have a person that takes the time to say, “Wow, that really impacted me”. There’s something about podcasting that, as such a long form, you know, attention, you know, to even sit and listen to this 20-some minute episode, like, that’s 20-some minutes out of someone’s day that they chose to listen to Billy, Brandy, and Joe.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, it’s an honor.

[BRANDY]:
And I’m glad it’s only 20 minutes.

[JOE]:
Oh, man. It’s like the Seth Rogen show, where they’re like three hours long, I’m like, he just loses track of time because he’s high.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, Pete Holmes was like that, just on and on.

[JOE]:
Oh, man. I haven’t listened to Pete Holmes podcast. I watched his TV show on HBO for a little bit, the first season.

[BILLY]:
But yeah, he’s friends with Rob Bell, too, and I was a bit jealous when you get Rob in, I’m not gonna lie.

[JOE]:
Actually, I met Pete Holmes before he exploded, and I was like, because I was out in LA with my friend Kelly at one of Rob’s two-day events, and he brought in Pete Holmes and it was like, “Who’s this, like, washed-up actor? Is he gonna ever do anything?” and little did I know, like, his HBO show was about to explode and then I got my picture with him so I could prove in.

[BRANDY]:
That’s cool!

[JOE]:
So, when you think about podcasting, maybe just, like, what are a couple, maybe, mindsets or things for people to think of? So, if people hear this and they’re like, you know, “I’m going to come to that, I’m going to come to Killin’It Camp, I want to hear Billy and Brandy talk about Podcasting 101.” What are some things they can do to maybe prep for your session, get in the right mindset so that when they come, they get even more out of it?

[BRANDY]:
I think the first thing is, just come ready to brainstorm. Come ready to talk about your ideas, and put your ideas out there, have some feedback on it. So, like we did, you know, we just asked, “What do you think about this?” and we had a little table talk, and that was very helpful to talk through that with other people, “Am I going in the right direction?” or just, sometimes you need someone to process things out with, that’s not yourself, because we see things very one-way and linear, where other people can pull things out. So, that’s one thing is, just come in with your ideas, if you have an idea and you want to hear about it. The other thing is we’re going to take you through, like you said, some of the phases and what to expect. And then, our biggest thing is how we have failed and where we’ve succeeded.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. And we’ve learned some of our biggest lessons by messing up, and not taking ourselves so seriously, and just putting the mic on, plugging it in, and hitting play. And that was probably the biggest permission slip you gave us, because I believe, without a team and without accountability, we would have been paralyzed with fear. So, getting in a room of like-minded people who are there to encourage you, who are for you, who have your back, who want to see you do well and reach your goals and dreams, is just an amazing supportive thing that I don’t think we could have… It would have been so lonely to do this alone.

[BRANDY]:
And we also want people to leave like they’ve done something, so we don’t want people to come in and just listen the whole time, we want people to leave thinking, “Okay, I have a starting point, I have somewhere I’m going, I have a little bit of a vision, but I also have a little bit of an action plan on how to get there.”

[BILLY]:
Yes.

[JOE]:
And I just love that, less than a year ago, we were sitting at a table in the Rocky Mountains, talking about a podcasting idea, and now, less than a year later, you’re going to be speaking about Podcasting 101. It just shows how you only need to be a few steps ahead of your audience to teach them and show them. And yes, I can speak about podcasting and I’m going to be speaking about podcasting, but it’s going to be from a very different point of view than someone who’s less than a year into this journey. And so, even just to say to people, you don’t have to be a guru or an expert, you can say to people, I’m a few steps ahead of you, here’s what I’ve learned, let me co-learn with you. I don’t know everything, and I still feel confident that I’m gonna give you something valuable. Like, how cool is that, to show the transformation of the two of you in less than a year, that now you’re presenting on Podcasting 101?

[BILLY]:
Never would have thought it.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, we hope this time next year, we’ll be able to say, “And here’s how we made all this money doing it.”

[BILLY]:
And another perk, Joe, we’re not just gonna give them tangible advice. We will be giving away the mic we are talking on today to someone in the audience. We’re gonna let them sign up and put their email, and pull a name out of a hat, and give them the chance to win the mic.

[BRANDY]:
To win the blue.

[JOE]:
Look at that. We have lots of surprises like that and now you know one of them. That’s incredible.

[BILLY]:
You will get first year’s Beta Male Revolution mic in your hands.

[JOE]:
Wow. That is awesome. Very cool. So, the last question I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would each of you want them to know?

[BILLY]:
Trust your gut and go easy on yourself. Comparison is a thief of joy. You do you.

[BRANDY]:
Find a good therapist.

[JOE]:
Concise and to the point. I love it. So, go listen to the Beta Male Revolution podcast. It’s wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, we were talking a lot about the Done For You podcasting services; if you want to hear more about that, if you want to talk to me, you can apply over at practiceofthepractice.com/apply and I’ll jump on a phone call with you and see if that might be a fit. Also, Killin’It Camp, it’s coming up in early October, it’s only $95 and you get to come to three full packed days. I mean, we’re gonna send you one link, you can pop in and out, you can eat a sandwich, you can go do a therapy session, come back, we’re recording all of them, assuming the tech doesn’t get screwed up, and they’re all going to be going into a course that you get access to for that $95, there’s not an upsell where you get access from there, it’s just for that 95 bucks you not get not only those three days of live content, but you also are going to get those recordings as well. Billy and Brandy, thank you for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[BRANDY]:
Thanks, Joe.

[BILLY]:
Thanks, Joe.

[JOE]:
That was so amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. Make sure you grab your Killin’It Camp ticket over at killinitcamp.com where you can see a list of all of our speakers, when they’re speaking, you can pop in and pop out throughout all of Killin’It Camp, and you’ll also get access to all the videos in the form of an e-course. We are so excited to be offering this to you. Also, a huge thank you to Practice Solutions. Practice Solutions is the premier billers for therapists, Practice Solutions is the best, so head on over to Practice Solutions’ website, we absolutely love them. If you just go over to practicesol.com. Go over there to practicesol.com and they will get you started, they will get you onboard, they will get you all registered with insurances, they are amazing. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and in your brain. Have a great day. All right.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music; we really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate, authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.