Have you done the enneagram test? Are you part of type 8, 9, or 1 group? What are some insights that can help you manage staff with these numbers, or if you are part of these groups yourself?
In this 3-part repurposed podcast episode series, Whitney Owens speaks with James P. Owens about the Enneagram gut triad.
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James P Owens is a pastor, podcaster, and self-described Bible geek. He is a graduate of Denver Seminary and Duke Divinity School and the host of Hermeneutic of Resistance, a podcast about interpreting the Bible in ways that resist oppression and open doors for human liberation.
Meet Whitney Owens
Whitney is a licensed professional counselor and owns a growing group practice in Savannah, Georgia. Along with a wealth of experience managing a practice, she also has an extensive history working in a variety of clinical and religious settings, allowing her to specialize in consulting for faith-based practices and those wanting to connect with religious organizations.
Knowing the pains and difficulties surrounding building a private practice, she started this podcast to help clinicians start, grow, and scale a faith-based practice. She has learned how to start and grow a successful practice that adheres to her own faith and values. And as a private practice consultant, she has helped many clinicians do the same.
In This Podcast
- The enneagram triads
- The gut triad
The enneagram triads
The enneagram consists of 9 basic types or dominant personalities, and within those 9 there are three triads:
1.The Gut Triad
Types 8, 9, and 1 are part of the gut triad. They live out of their gut, their internal bodily feelings. They are characterized by how they do, or do not, deal with anger.
2.The Heart triad
The second triad consists of types 2, 3, and 4. These types are characterized by how they do, or do not, deal with their feelings. Each of these types is seeking love.
3.The Head Triad
This consists of types 5, 6, and 7. These types live more in their heads and in their thoughts and they are characterized by how they do, or do not, deal with fear.
The Gut Triad
People part of the enneagram types 8, 9, and 1 feel their emotions within their gut and live out their emotions through their body. When they have strong emotional reactions, they will feel it somewhere in their body.
These types are perceived as having a certain kind of strength and it may come from this bodily gut energy. They have physical reactions to what is going on in their lives.
In the enneagram alongside the triads, there are also stances and they help to explain how each type works. They are assertive, aggressive, compliant, and withdrawn.
- The Challenger/Commander: They are the take-the-bull-by-the-horns kind of people. They do desire control and may, maybe unintentionally, steamroll over others to do things how they think they should be done. Type 8’s are of the aggressive stance and tend to move independently from, or even against, others.
- A good way to work with a type 8 is to not tell them what to do but instead helping them create what they want that works with what you want. When you are managing an 8, do not be afraid to respond to them in a strong way – they tend to be confrontational, and when you respond back with strength, they respect that.
- The Peacemaker/Mediator: 9s are part of the gut triad in how they deal or do not deal, with their anger. Their basic desire is to have a kind of wholeness and have peace with themselves and the people around them.
- The 9 stance is the withdrawn stance: they tend to move away from people and may come across as aloof. If you have a 9 on your staff in your private practice, they may not speak up for themselves in a big group discussion – encourage them to express their own thoughts because they struggle to express their own needs.
- The Perfectionist/Performer: Type 1 is part of the compliant stance; in this case it means they move towards or with other people. They seek out companionship and work in a team.
- If you are a 1 and a private practice owner, the feeling of having things always go perfectly will put a strain on you in your practice. “Close enough is good enough” is good to keep in mind instead of perfectionism. There are some things you have to do right such as legal things and so forth, but realize that you can be lenient with people that work for you and lenient with the fact that they may do things differently than how you do them.
- If you manage type 1’s, realize they have extremely high standards for themselves – they may be much harder on them already before you push on them for making a mistake. Encourage them to learn from their mistakes and that they will get a second chance to try again to relieve some of that pressure.
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Meet Joe Sanok
Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 541. I am so excited about the next three episodes. If you’ve ever heard about the Enneagram, maybe you haven’t even heard about the Enneagram, it is this amazing way of kind of thinking about how people are understanding them. It’s really ancient way of kind of diving into that. And I remember when I was listening to Whitney Owen’s podcast recently as I was driving across, I think it was Arizona on our road trip, and the way that she and her husband James just talked through just the Enneagram and how they think about it. I was like, we have to have those exact shows from the Faith in Practice podcast on the Practice of the Practice podcast. So I reached out to Whitney to see if we could repurpose these.
[JOE]: So for the next three shows, you’re going to be learning all about the Enneagram from Whitney Owens, who is the most awesome podcaster with the Faith in Practice podcast. If you haven’t checked out the Faith in Practice podcast, you should definitely check it out. But the next three shows are all she and her husband talking to any Enneagram stuff. So without any further ado here they are.
[WHITNEY OWENS]: This is the second episode in a four-part series on the Enneagram in private practice. And I have James P. Owens here with me. This is not only a great person I’m talking to about the Enneagram, but also my husband. So we can do a lot of banter back and forth on marital things, but also on private practice things. As I can definitely tell you, James probably feels like he owns a private practice himself with how much I talk about private practice work. Right, James?
[JAMES P. OWENS]: Yes, that’s right. Just as I always said, when you were in grad school that I could have passed the NCE for you, if I had to, same way, I feel like I know way more than I ever would have wanted to about private practice.
[WHITNEY]: That’s right. That’s right. And what we did talk about before that I was thinking about after we recorded our last episode is another thing that’s really interesting about James and I, is that James has been totally involved in the clinical world. We have worked at three different places together, which I think is pretty unique about a couple. We started out working at a Christian ministry. It was the Wesley Foundation at the university of Georgia, which is actually how we met. But then later while I was in graduate school, James actually was a recruiter for my graduate program. So he learned all about masters in counseling programs stuff at that point. He actually was interviewed in one of my classes as Ivan Pavlov. That’s right. He brought a big dog, he attached some syringes to the side of its mouth, and so that was really awesome. And then we also moved to Colorado and he and I both worked at a psychiatric hospital together. So, James is well aware of the clinical world.
[JAMES]: Yes, the Ivan Pavlov project was really special because even after that, I would walk around in the hallways at your school and people would be like, “Hey, it’s Pavlov. Where’s the dog?”
[WHITNEY]: Yes. I think people didn’t actually know your name. They just thought you were Pavlov.
[JAMES]: Pavlov, yes. That’s right.
[WHITNEY]: Well, you did have a good accent. So that brought it all together. Awesome. Well let’s, so for today’s episode, we are going to talk about the Gut triad. I like feel it, as I say it in my gut, when I say Gut Triad, I think it brings my accent out too, but we’re going to talk about —
[JAMES]: As a type one, you are a part of the Gut Triad?
[WHITNEY]: That’s right. So we’re going to talk about what the Gut Triad is. And maybe James let’s actually start with what is a triad within the Enneagram and then specifically, maybe you can talk about what the Gut Triad is.
[JAMES]: Absolutely. So I think this will be something really helpful for your listeners to introduce them to this concept of the triads. I know it helps me understand Enneagram to understand my own time, but also the types of others. So of course, as we discussed in the last episode, the Enneagram is nine basic types. So that divides into three triads; types, eight, nine, and one are part of what we call the Gut Triad. These are types that live out of their gut, out of their bodily internal energy. These types are also characterized by how they deal or don’t deal with their anger. The second one is the heart triad that’s types, two, three, and four. These types are characterized by how they do or don’t deal with their feelings. If you listened to the last episode, you might’ve noticed that I mentioned in the basic description of them, how each of these types of seeking love very much living out of their feelings.
The last one is five, six and seven. That is the head triad, people that are living a little more in their heads, in their thoughts. And these types are characterized by how they deal or don’t deal with their fear. That’s five, six to seven. So, yes. So we’re going to talk about the Gut Triad today, which will help us understand types eight, nine, and one a little better.
[WHITNEY]: Perfect. Thank you for kind of going through that with us. Okay, so the Gut Triad, I mean, I’m going to guess it’s called gut because you actually feel it kind of internally or like within, can you explain what that is?
[JAMES]: Yes. Each one of these types, eight, nine, and one tend to be people that live out of their gut. They tend to live on gut instinct. And so if you, I think if you are one of these types, you probably understand this intuitively. You feel things in your body. When you’re having a strong, emotional reaction or going through something, you’re going to feel it some way in your body. If you’re not one of these types, that might seem a little unusual to you. Like I know for example, for me, I’m in the head triad as a five and so I actually tend to be pretty disconnected from my body. But eights, nines and ones are not that way. Eight, nines and ones tend to be very connected and to live out of that bodily energy. For this reason, I think one of the things that other types perceive about gut types is they perceive a certain strength. I know I do when I’m interacting with eights, nines and ones, I perceive in them a certain kind of strength and I think that strings really comes from this bodily gut energy.
[WHITNEY]: I’m sitting here thinking about our interactions and how I’m always talking about how I feel things within me and you’re just kind of sitting there going, “Okay.” And then you’ll talk from your head and I’m like, “Oh, this is too much for me.” So going back to it is helpful to understand where people are coming from so that we understand them through the Enneagram lens.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. You know, I can think of numerous times when you have said that you are having some kind of physical reaction to something that’s going on mentally or emotionally, and that’s, I think that’s probably very characteristic of all of the gut types.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. Yes. All right. So let’s talk a little bit more about the eight and I would love to also kind of address like what this looks like with people and obviously clinically, and then maybe we can talk a little bit about what it’s like to work with an eight. Like I said, in the other episode, I use the Enneagram a lot in my clinical work. I have my clients, obviously the ones that are open to it, I have the clients take it because it will help me guide them on their journey. And we talked about last episode, the origins of the Enneagram, and it used to help Catholic priests in mentoring people and helping them in the right direction and understanding their strengths and weaknesses. So, we don’t use the Enneagram with our clients to like hound them or put them in a box or shake a finger at them. We use it to help spur them on in their growth. But then I also do that with the people I work with. Everyone I hire, I have them take an Enneagram test and that can be the clinicians down to the assistants so that I know better as a boss, how can I help them do their job better?
And knowing their Enneagram helps me not only that, but to dive into their strengths, to know the best way to love and serve them. And so I do want us to kind of talk about that. And I do this also with my consultees because when you run a private practice, your Enneagram is going to come out. Like it’s going to, and so I can help leaders in understanding their Enneagram as they’re entrepreneurs. And we do find, at least I find, James, you could probably attest to this, certain numbers tend to be the kinds that would start a business, would start a private practice, would listen to a lot of podcasts, you know, that kind of a thing.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. So I know we wanted to go ahead and dive in to type eight. So type eight is called the challenger or the commander, and if you are a type eight, you may well be the type that would start a business, maybe multiple businesses. I know a type eight who has like a full-time job and two side businesses. So type eights are take the bull by the horns kind of people. They’re very confident, come off as fearless, strong, powerful. If you’ll remember from the last episode, the basic desire of a type eight is to protect others, to be strong and avoid weakness and they fear being controlled or violated. So if you’re a type eight and you’re say running a private practice, or you’re a counselor of some sort, realize that that’s probably how you’re going to come across to people. You’re going to come across as a little strong, a little abrasive. You might have been told in the past that you come on a little too strong. You’re probably not trying to do that. You’re probably not, certainly not trying to be mean to people, but you should be aware that this is how you might come across to people.
You might come across as somebody that’s a little bit intense at times. Type eights do desire control. To be aware of that as well if you’re a type eight running a business, running a private practice that you might even unintentionally at times steamroll over others to get your own desires, things that you want to get done done. One of the things that’s, I think also really helpful along with the understanding of the triads. So this is kind of another concept we talk about the Enneagrams. We have triads, there’s also something called stances. I think the stances are really important in understanding how each type works or works together with others. So the stances are assertive or aggressive, compliant, and withdrawn. I will explain each one when we get around to it but the eight is part of the aggressive stance. And that means that eights move independently of others, or sometimes we might even against others. So at eight, as a leader is wrong leader, they’re going to do their thing, get on board or get out of the way.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. I totally know them. And it’s so true, James several people that I’ve consulted with that have really strong practices are eights. And I think I, and who knows where I hear anything, but I know I heard somewhere that you want to hire an eight to work for you because eights get a lot of work done.
[JAMES]: Absolutely. They are extremely productive people.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. And so I think it’s important if you have an eight in your practice that like as an employee maybe, or maybe even a client, a good way to work with them is don’t tell them what to do. Like James said, they kind of move against. So I have found that if I am working with an eight and I say, “Hey, here’s our game plan. You’re going to do X, Y, and Z.” That does not go well because they want to do their plan. So helping them create what they want instead of us imposing what we think, or at least they sense it as imposing, we don’t think it’s imposing, but they need to create their own things so they felt like they have power and control over it because the worst thing is to take control away from an eight.
[JAMES]: Absolutely. I think that’s really good advice. And if you’re managing an eight, don’t be afraid if they come to you in a strong way. Don’t be afraid if they come to you with something that sounds like a strong criticism or something that almost sounds like they’re being rude. They’re probably not trying to be rude. This is how eights seek out intimacy with other people. They do it through confrontation, through strength. At the same time, if you respond back with strengths, you know, not with anger or with pettiness or anything like that, but it was actual strength, like, “Hey, I know what I’m talking about,” eights will often respect that.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. I’ve actually found that to be the case. So I have an eight here on my staff. And, you know, you talked about in the first episode about really reading about your type and understanding it because when she took the Enneagram, she came up as a three and then over time, as we’ve gotten to know each other and she’s read more and studied the Enneagram, she’s realizing that she’s a lot more an eight. And now that I kind of see our interactions and even the way you just described that she will come to me very strongly where I can get kind of intimidated, believe it or not, I kind of pull back, but then understanding that that’s not what she’s trying to do. She’s just trying to be close to me and trying to talk through things. And so I have learned to come back strong instead of pulling away. So I appreciate that advice. And it has worked actually in the way that I’m working with an eight on my staff.
[JAMES]: Absolutely. Yes, three and eight is a common mistype. Three, eight and seven are all part of that same aggressive, assertive stance. And so those are common mistypes.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. Well, great. Okay, so talk about the nine and what are they like? And what’s it like to work with a nine?
Yes. So nines are also part of the Gut Triad. I mentioned earlier that the Gut Triad is characterized by how they deal or don’t deal with their anger. Eights externalize their anger. They kind of push it out to the world around them, but nines ignore their anger. So nines, even though they’re right next door to the eight on the Enneagram, they often seem very, very different. They totally ignore the anger dimension of themselves to the point, as I mentioned in the last episode where sometimes they ignore it and ignore it and ignore it and ignore it and it finally just bubbles over and explodes. But nines are natural mediators, they’re peacemakers, prone to a little bit to procrastination, but their basic desire is to have this kind of wholeness, peace of mind, to make peace with themselves and with everyone in the world.
I mentioned the stances earlier, the nine’s stance is the withdrawal instincts. This means that nines move away from other people. So, if you’re a nine counselor or private practice owner be aware of this, that you naturally tend to move away from people. You might naturally not be very managerial. Nines are not micromanagers usually. They don’t want to get involved too much with the people they’re managing. Realize that if you’re a nine managing employees, people might see you as a little more aloof or indifferent than you intend to be. So it’s okay for you to seek out your employees, ask them how they’re doing. They may think that you’re not being available enough to them.
[WHITNEY]: That’s a really good point. A couple of years back, I have like a group of college friends and we text each other all the time and I just love them. One night we were all together and I was like, “Okay, everybody we’re taking the Enneagram. Like, that’s what I do for fun.” And so I had all my friends take the Enneagram, and one of them popped up as a nine and I, all of a sudden these light bulbs are going off. “Oh, that’s why she’s been acting this way.” So, for example, she was always the one in the text messages that had the least responses, or it was hard to get her to commit to things. And then it was helpful for me because I understood, like it’s not about me personally, this is just her personality type. And it’s been really helpful for her too, because she didn’t know what the Enneagram was. And now that she knows she’s a nine, she’s able to kind of move past some of that withdrawn feeling and really pursue people a little bit better and understanding how we feel. And so knowing how nines work has helped me not take it personally.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. And so if you’re managing a nine, like let’s say you own a practice and you have a nine on your staff, realize that they may not speak up for themselves. So you may want to kind of read the room a little bit, say you’re in like a staff meeting or a group meeting or something and the nine is just keeping quiet, keeping mum, you know? You might want to kind of try to read their face a little bit and say, “Okay, well maybe,” you know, maybe they have something to say and you can kind of gently, you know, “Hey, do you have something to offer here?” Encourage them to express their own thoughts and feelings because nines really struggle to make their own opinions, their own feelings, their own needs known. They’re very much attuned to the needs of others, to the opinions of others, to making sure everyone else is heard, that their own opinion is often suppressed. So give them that space to do that and give them time to do it.
It may take a little bit of time to figure out exactly what they want or think. One of the things I read in one of the Enneagram books, I think this is probably in Crohn’s is that nines’ talking style is Epic Saga. So, don’t be surprised if a nine that you know and talk to kind of launches into some sort of meandering story that seems to have no points. It has a point for them and it’s important that you’re letting them tell it.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. Well, as you know, I actually had a nine on my staff at the beginning stages of a group practice and I had no clue. So to tell you the truth, if I could go back totally why I had people taking the Enneagram at the beginning so that I could have understood them better. I didn’t start doing that until I was a year in. And just being able to understand that I could have supported her in a different kind of way, but me being a one I come off as somewhat aggressive, I guess, and like just communicate strongly and make my expectations known. And then being with a nine I’m sure that came off really difficult for her and she never told me what she wanted and I just assumed everything was fine because she wasn’t saying anything because I learned that if you’re not happy you say something, but not everyone’s like that. I’ve now learned from the Enneagram. And so then one day she just came in and gave me her letter of resignation and I was like, “What’s going on here?” And she did not want to really tell me what was going on. And then when I finally pushed her to say, “Hey, what really happened? I’m sad that you’re leaving.”
It was, she let me have it. So it’s kind of like what you were saying, lots of frustrations were bubbling up for her, but I could never change anything or meet her needs because she wasn’t telling me. But I also wasn’t asking because I just assumed it was fine and then boom. It was, she exploded on me and then I had a lot to really process after that. So anyway, it was really that experience that allowed me to say, “Okay, everyone that I hire is taking the Enneagram because I’ve got to know how to best meet your needs and communicate with you.”
[JAMES]: Well, and that’s what the Enneagram can really do for your private practice, your staff, your church, small group, where any group of people that you interact with is that it kind of speeds up the getting to know you process. You know, you would have learned those things about this employee if she had worked with you for a number of years, but what the Enneagram can do is it can give you that knowledge, that insight into someone else a lot more quickly. So if you know someone’s Enneagram type, you kind of fast forward ahead of these years of getting to know someone.
[JAMES]: And learn about it more quickly.
[WHITNEY]: Sure, sure. And once I started bringing the Enneagram into the work I was doing, I actually had James come and do a training with my staff on the Enneagram. And so that was really great because then we were all talking Enneagram and understanding each other better. So I do encourage you, not only have them take the test, but maybe incorporate some kind of training into the program so that you can help understand each other. And like we are always talking Enneagram around here. So, yes. All right. Did we hit everything you wanted to say on nine?
[JAMES]: I think so. I think we should go on to type one, type one, the perfectionist or the reformer is a third of the Gut Triad. So, I’ve mentioned at each type, the stance. So the eight you’ll remember was part of the aggressive or assertive stance, you know, moving against or moving independently. The nine was part of the withdrawn stance, moving away from people. The one is part of what we call the compliance stance. Now don’t think that compliant there means you do whatever other people tell you. In this case, compliance stance means you move towards or with other people. The ones seek out companionship, they seek out team building, working together. Ones along with sixes and twos, which are the other members of the compliance stance, the other types that are in the compliance stance, seek out teams to do things together with, moving towards other people. If you are a one private practice owner keep in mind that this desire to be perfect, to be always morally good is going to make it a little hard for you when things aren’t perfect.
We know, of course in real life that things are never perfect, but a type one is always trying to make things perfect. Our daughter, one of her teachers in school has a saying ‘Close enough is good enough. We don’t do perfect.’ And our daughter has been repeating this at home over and over again, along with a few other funny things that her teachers have ‘Close enough is good enough. We don’t do perfect.’ It’s a good thing for ones to remember.
[WHITNEY]: Yes, I’ve been running around the house saying.
[JAMES]: Yes, along with our little girl. You know, realize as a type one, if you’re a private practice owner, you’re trying to build a staff that you have incredibly high expectations of yourself and not everyone may meet the expectations that you have of yourself. That you have a way that you think things have to be done, have to be done the right way. Other people might not have that. Now of course, there are some things you have to attend to. There are certain details, ethical things, legal things you have to do right. And I’m not saying you should let things slide on that, but perhaps as a one you might have things that you just prefer and you tend to make those into law, so to speak. You might want to realize that you can be a little more lenient with the people that work for you.
[WHITNEY]: Yes, this is great. I think about like starting my practice and starting my group and Joe would always say, “Don’t, don’t wait until everything’s done right. You just need to move forward with where you’re at.” And I think for a one that’s really difficult. We’re very detail oriented. We have to understand how everything’s going to come together. But I have learned over time that if I do that, then I’m not going to accomplish anything because nothing’s ever going to be right for, in my mind, you know? And so being able to step out and do things, even if it’s not perfect is really important to kind of get past that as a one.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. That’s great advice for ones out there. Now, if you have ones on your staff, if you manage type ones, realize that they do have these extremely high expectations of themselves. So if, for example, the type one that works for you makes a mistake and they are aware of it, well, guess what? They’re probably going to be harder on themselves than anyone else can be. So if they make a mistake and they’re aware of it and you come to them berating them or telling them how awful they are, well, that’s not going to be helpful because they’re already way harder on themselves than you could ever be. You need to let your type ones that work for you know that you value them, that they don’t have to be perfect to be good, that they can learn from their mistakes and make things better.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. I want to share for a few minutes about the most impactful part that I’ve learned from the Enneagram. Well, I don’t know, it’s all impactful, but anyway, when we think about the story of just me remembering the Enneagram and I remember sitting on the sofa and you’re talking to me about it, and you said the ones, I guess their like sin or their problem is that they’re angry at the world. And the one is just festering with anger. And of course my first thought was I don’t have anger because that’s me being a perfectionist right?
[JAMES]: Right, anger is wrong. I don’t have anger. I’m perfect, right?
[WHITNEY]: That’s right. That’s right. And so that’s what I thought to myself. And then over time I was like, “Wow, I am so mad that the world is so messed up and I can’t believe that people can’t get their act together and do things right.” So judgmental. It was like the judge voice within me was there, but I didn’t know it was there. And so being able to recognize that I can offer a lot more compassion, a lot more acceptance, letting things go because yes, I put way too high an expectation on people and things. And I have had to learn that in my practice that, you know, everyone’s doing the best they can and being able to use their strengths and understand their Enneagram and love who they are instead of just getting mad that they’re not like me, but I’m really glad they’re not like me, because that would be a pretty boring practice.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. So what’s your kind of highlighting there is the way the ones relate to their anger. Yes, most ones do not think of themselves as angry people and they’re not externally, overtly angry. What ones do is they tend to internalize their anger. And so it comes out as this kind of resentment, this kind of smoldering resentment at the world for not being perfect or at other people for not being as hardworking or as ethical or as perfect as they themselves would like to be. So I think it’s really good to recognize that because as you said, then you can work on it and then you can be more compassionate towards other people because that’s really one of the main things that the Enneagram is all about. It’s not about just knowing yourself better, even though that’s really important. It certainly isn’t about knowing everyone else’s flaws and judging them. It’s definitely not about that.
It’s about being more compassionate towards other people. This should all, all of this Enneagram stuff should awaken more compassion, more understanding in us, towards other people. It should help us to understand others, but also to be able to act loving and kindly towards them.
[WHITNEY]: Well, that’s great. Well, thank you for covering all this info with us today. And then on the next episode, we’re going to talk about the next triad, the Feelings Triad. So that’s the two, three and four, and then we’ll move on in the last episode to talk about the Head Triad after that. So anything else, James, that we didn’t cover?
[JAMES]: Sounds great. Thank you for having me. And I’ll just mention real quick that as you said in the first episode, I am a Bible geek and podcaster. And so if you are interested in biblical exegesis and the way it impacts the world today, especially in the realms of social issues and social justice and things like that, you can check out my podcast. It’s called Hermeneutics of Resistance.
[WHITNEY]: Oh, thanks, James. Well, I’m glad that you started a podcast. We can be podcasts buddies.
[JAMES]: That’s right.
[JOE]: What an awesome show. Hey, if you have not yet tried Therapy Notes, you need some help around your notes, your billing, your scheduling, and now tele-health. Tele-health has never been more important than now, and it’s totally integrated within Therapy Notes. So make sure you go over to therapynotes.com, use promo code [JOE]. You’re going to get three months for free. They’re giving you three months free, and if you’re in another EHR, they will take all of that data and bring it over securely. Why not try it out? If you’re frustrated with your EHR or you just want something better, you’ve got to check out therapynotes.com. Use promo code [JOE] at checkout.
Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye. .
Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.