[ALISON PIDGEON]
You are listening to the Grow a Group Practice podcast. Whether you were thinking about starting a group practice or in the beginning stages, or want to learn how to scale up your already existing group practice, you are in the right place. I’m Alison Pidgeon, your host, a serial entrepreneur with four businesses, one of which is a large group practice that I started in 2015. Each week, I feature a guest or topic that is relevant to group practice owners. Let’s get started.

Hi, I’m Alison Pidgeon your host. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen today to the Grow a Group Practice podcast. I have an awesome interview for you today with Jennifer Spivak. She’s the CEO of a company called The AdGirls Agency, which is an all-female Facebook ads business. She has helped hundreds of businesses generate millions of dollars on Facebook and Instagram. She has an all-female team who help other women own businesses make tons of money and break the rules when it comes to Facebook Ads. Jennifer has been featured in Forbes and the New York Times, and she also works as an adjunct professor of digital marketing at the City College of New York. So Jennifer has just a wealth of information about Facebook and Instagram Ads and I ask her all the questions about how that would apply to us as group practice owners. So I hope you enjoy this interview with Jennifer Spivak. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to the podcast.
[JENNIFER SPIVAK]
Hey, thanks for having me, Alison.
[ALISON]
I’m so happy to talk with you today. Let’s have you start out by introducing yourself and your business.
[JENNIFER]
So my name is Jennifer Spivak. I am the CEO and founder of The AdGirls. We are an all-female Facebook and Instagram advertising agency. We’ve been around now for about seven and a half years. I have a team of 14 amazing women and look plain and simple. We help women-owned businesses, women entrepreneurs, female personal brands use Facebook and Instagram ads to predictively and profitably scale their business.
[ALISON]
Awesome. That is why I wanted you to come on the podcast, because I get so many questions from people about using Facebook and Instagram ads for their practice. So I thought it’d be great to ask you about some of your best tips around that. I know I’ve used Facebook Ads for my practice and it’s actually worked out quite well. We’ve gotten many clients from it. So yes, let’s maybe dive into that a little bit. I know one of the key terms people talk about is conversion. It’s one thing to run an ad. It’s a whole nother thing to actually get a client to reach out and schedule an appointment because they saw the ad. So can you tell me a little bit about your strategy around that?
[JENNIFER]
Yes, and I mean, I think that that, there’s sort of like a bigger picture concept buried in there and I love that you brought that up. It’s so easy to say, if you think about Facebook ads under the umbrella of social media. It’s really easy to go into the Ads Manager and follow the prompts and technically set up an add but have no real strategy behind it. So the ability to be able to use Facebook and Instagram ads for conversion for actually bringing leads into your world and turning them into paying clients is only partially about the ad. It actually has a lot to do with the system behind the ad. Something that we talk about a lot at my agency is that an ad by itself doesn’t actually do anything.

It’s really like plain and simple functionally; is giving your money to Facebook and you’re getting eyeballs on something. So the conversion piece, yes has a little bit to do with how you set up the ad. There are some technical implications of that, but it is really more the big picture strategy of, okay, what’s the actual customer journey that I want to take people through? So if somebody sees an ad, what’s the next step? It could be just go and directly book a call with me, book a consult, like that’s one option. But we have clients who have more of like a nurture sequence or a nurture funnel, or maybe there’s some sort of training and value provided in content. There’s so many different ways that it could look but I think the biggest aspect of this in being able to use ads to actually predictably grow your business is really strategically thinking through what happens behind the ad and making sure that you have the right systems in place to take those people that Facebook is bringing you and actually nurture them and to which they’re able to become a paying customer or client.
[ALISON]
So I think essentially what you’re referring to is the idea of a marketing funnel, correct?
[JENNIFER]
Exactly. Sometimes I like to use customer decision journey instead of funnel, because funnel feels like scary, but like really, it literally doesn’t have to be the super complex funnel. It is literally just the touch points that people need to go through in order to be ready to pay you money more or less.
[ALISON]
I think no matter what you call it, essentially, I think a lot of times as business owners, we just think like, oh, well I’ll put this ad up and then people will start calling me and then I’ll get a client, but it’s a lot, there’s a lot more to it than just that. So can you maybe briefly touch on what are those steps or how many times maybe somebody has to interact with your business before they actually buy something?
[JENNIFER]
I think it would actually be best, I want to share an example of a client that we are working with. She’s like one of our best success case studies you could say. While she’s not necessarily a therapist, I think that this example is particularly relevant because she is selling a high-end group coaching program that is specifically for women who are going through divorce. So I think there could again be some similarities between some of the listeners here. So here’s what, her name is Donna and here’s what Donna’s funnel looks like. So we are running at served to people that we target. That likely means that they are thinking about divorce, going through the process of divorce based on certain interests that they have on Facebook. We are sending that ad to a webinar that Donna has.

So basically this is like a free prerecorded training walking through her, I believe it’s her like five step methodology for how she supports women that are going through that transitional aspect of their life. At the end of the prerecorded webinar video training, there is a call to action to go ahead and book a call with her. Then obviously on the call is when she’s able to convert them or close them into her high ticket program and in between a person actually coming and signing up for the webinar and booking a call. There’s what we call retargeting ads. So constant reminders of, “Hey, you watched the training, don’t forget to go ahead and book your call,” as well as a follow up email sequence that’s sort of essentially doing the same thing.

So a funnel like that, I mean, again, it’s just a couple of steps. It’s ad, watch the free training, go ahead and book a call. But even between all of those pieces, there’s going to be people who drop off, not necessarily because they’re not interested. The doorbell could have rang. Like there’s so many reasons why somebody doesn’t take action right away and they just need those additional touch points. So having those sort of like reminder points through both retargeting ads and email would help us move as many people as possible, further and further along, down that funnel. The end result is on average, Donna ends up spending, I’m going to guess probably between, if I remember correctly, like 10, $14,000 a month on her ads, but that spend is responsible for an average of around $80,000 a month in revenue. So it’s a really, really nice return and it’s predictable. I mean, it’s like, we just know that when we’re going to spend X, we’re going to make Y.
[ALISON]
That’s amazing. That’s a great example.
[JENNIFER]
Yes she’s lovely in doing such amazing work in the world, so that just makes it that much better.
[ALISON]
I know we were talking a little bit before we started recording and you were saying how you have a very specific approach to the messaging that you put on the ads. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
[JENNIFER]
Yes. I think this relates to, the Facebook news feed, the Instagram news feed has only gotten more crowded in the last few years and it’s not going to get any less crowded. On top of that the online business landscape is also getting more crowded. So it’s not just about Facebook and Instagram, but just like in general. If you are a business coach, if you are a divorce coach, whatever it is that you are, there’s likely a bajillion other people that also categorize themselves as that. So how do we effectively stand out, not just in general, but if we’re talking about Facebook and Instagram ads, the inability to stand out is what has your ads get lower click through rates, less response. It ultimately ends up costing more for you to get people into your world. So it hurts you in that way, when you don’t have messaging that actually allows you to stand out.

So here is sort of like my take on this. This is not the way a lot of other people are looking at it or talking about it, but I’ve seen it work. So if you really think about it, yes, of course, there’s something about your methodology. There’s something about what you do that is maybe very unique to you, but at the end of the day, if all you’re doing, and this is sort of the way that we’ve been taught to market, we talk about our credentials. We talk about things that really make us look credible. We talk about the results, for example, that we’ve been able to achieve for a client or customer. The problem is that messaging is going to be so similar if we look at the bajillion, other people that also do what you do. It just isn’t.

So actually with how crowded the online business landscape is getting and with how crowded Facebook and Instagram is getting leading with how credible you are, leading with the results that you’ve generated is actually not enough to stand out. In fact, the only possible thing that could ever be truly, truly unique about what it is that you do and the service that you offer is you. So my sort of like punchline is stop talking about pain points, stop talking about the way we’ve been taught to do marketing and actually start talking about you value.

So there’s a specific methodology that we follow at my agency that we use for all of our clients. We also use it in our own marketing. It comes down to sort of distilling down your messaging across four different messaging buckets. So that first messaging bucket is credibility. It’s not about not using credibility in your marketing. That is important, especially if we’re talking about a therapist but that by itself is not enough. So that’s just bucket number one, it’s only 25% of our messaging bucket. Number two is vulnerability. It’s something about who you are as a human being, your life story. It could be your why, about what it is, why you do what you do, why you started your practice. But something that really creates that experience of like true, authentic connection, because you’re talking about really, again, just who you are as, as a person, I don’t even specifically relate to your business.

Then bucket number three is personality. I always say that this is the bucket that has your perfect person, read your messaging and go, I want to hang out with that person after work. You’re like, go grab a drink with them at the bar. Like it creates that experience. Then last bucket is feel good. That is really anything that could have a person on top of all the other experiences being created with your credibility, your vulnerability and your personality. They also can feel good about spending their money with you because that money further something in the world that they care about that could be something philanthropic.

I’ve seen people use this bucket and really just talking about like, they have a commitment to hiring, making diverse hires on their team. So it doesn’t have to be create a charity if that’s not something that is naturally what you’re doing in your business. But again, just thinking through the lens of how can I credibility make people know that they can trust me and I know what I’m doing? Vulnerability, they’re really feeling a connection with me. They see me as a human being. Personality they want to hang out with me and then lastly, they can also feel good about spending their money with me. That is actually how we make competition irrelevant, because it’s no longer about therapist A or therapist B or Facebook Ads agency A or Facebook Ads agency B. But actually I have picked this person because I’ve been able to feel like I have a real relationship with them based on how they do their messaging.
[ALISON]
That’s amazing. That’s so helpful that you outlined it that way. So follow up question, do you recommend that you have all of those four things in one ad or do you try to just focus on one of the buckets in one ad and then just rotate through?
[JENNIFER]
I honestly do a little bit of both. I think more than anything the way I like to use it, because we use this for our own agency marketing as well, and it’s been incredibly successful. Another space that’s just so crowded on the internet, our Facebook Ads agencies, so really finding out how we could stand out. This has been super profitable. I like to think of the messaging buckets first and foremost as a framework. So it’s not just, this is the ad for credibility and this is the, it’s like these, I know like I could run through hours very quickly and tell you, like, it’s not that I’m having one ad about one thing so much as I know that when I hit on these four points in general, in my marketing, in my messaging, on my landing page and in my ads.

It creates relationship building on steroids. If you look at, for example, like an our own agency funnel, we’re running an ad directly to a page where somebody can book a call with us. I can, if I run through my four messaging buckets, you’ll go through that page and you’re like, there it is, there it is, there it is, there it is. It’s like sprinkled throughout. We will have some ads that are doing a little bit more of that sprinkle and then some ads that are really just focusing on one bucket. Really again, at the end of the day, this is like another great point about ads. Everything is a test. So we get to actually segment out the different buckets and different ads or one ad that is a little bit more generic, actually do the testing and use the data to determine what people actually resonated with most.
[ALISON]
Nice. This reminds me of something we’re going through right now in my counseling practice, which is a group of about 30 therapists and we’re going through a rebranding process because we felt like we outgrew our old brand. So I imagine then when you make these ads and you represent a company that has dozens of employees, you’re trying to talk about the business as a whole as opposed to like, if somebody has their own solo business, you’re talking about their personality or their values or whatever makes them unique. Now you’re sort of having to make like those same, I don’t know what the word you would call it, but you’re basically having to find ways that you’re representing the group as a whole.
[JENNIFER]
Yes and look, definitely without a doubt, this methodology was created and fits perfectly for anything that I would consider like a personal brand. That doesn’t mean it can only be applied there. For example, at my agency, we work with, some e-commerce clients where they’re selling a physical product and like the creator actually has nothing to do with the marketing. So we’re still able to, again, it is a little bit less direct, less straightforward, but we’re still able to follow that same methodology. So, I mean, again, even an e-commerce company, like it’s not the same thing. It’s like, hi, as a human being, this is my personality, but actually what is their personality and what is a vulnerable story that we can share? So it can still apply, but yes, it does look just a little bit different
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[ALISON PIDGEON]
I’m curious. Do you have any examples of that, how it looks different with a bigger company or a company that is selling a product, not a service?
[JENNIFER]
So I’m just trying to think through some of our e-commerce clients. I know again, if we’re looking at the credibility bucket any sort of media features is always like a really good place to start and having media logos in terms of vulnerability. Again, we will have, so some of our like e-commerce clients, we will have the owner or the founder, for example, like share a 3o second video that we use as an ad talking about their, why, why they started the business, so putting a little bit of like a face to it. For personality, I remember one time we were, my business partner and I were doing a presentation and we wanted to pick out ads that showed personality and we found an ad for an underwear brand and their specific hook was basically panties said don’t go up your butt crack.

It’s just like, such a perfect example of, I mean, how many ads out there on the internet could be for underwear for women? Like, I mean, there’s just so many things and they found something that like the right people are going to be like, that’s hilarious and I want to spend money with them. So that’s great personality. Then the feel good one is I think the easiest. Obviously these days we have so many businesses that have a philanthropic aspect that donate 10% of their proceeds to whatever. So that’s a way to use that as well.
[ALISON]
Nice. So what would be your advice or what have you seen in terms of people who are spending their marketing budget the wrong way?
[JENNIFER]
What it always comes down to, I think is a lack of understanding data and how to use it in your business. Even though we specialize in Facebook and Instagram ads, I think like sometimes people ask me, well does that mean I should not advertise on LinkedIn? Does that mean this other platform sucks? I’m like, I mean, no diversify. Like there’s no one right way for everybody. But what is so amazing about online advertising is how crystal clear you can get with your data to be able to see exactly when I spend money on this platform and I spend money on this ad or this audience, this is how much I make back. I think in general, data is a thing that can be intimidating and Facebook is not set up to make it super easy for just like the average person to be able to get that information in a really clear way.

So I’m not saying it’s a hundred percent easy or simple or perfect, but when you know and understand the numbers and data in your business, you are in control of your own growth. So I’m not naturally a numbers person but I learned to love numbers and data through the lens of when I understand this, I make more money. So that’s a thing that I can, I’m a money person for sure. So yes, I mean, at the end of the day, the mismanagement of spend always comes down to not looking at data, not having your tracking set up properly, to be able to look at that data in the right way or not understanding how to interpret it and adjusting and making better budget decisions based on where you’re actually getting the most bang for your buck, so to speak.
[ALISON]
I’m glad you said that because I see the same thing with business owners is that they’re just paying money every month to run ads or whatever and it’s like, okay, how do you know they’re working? Do you go back and check and see how many people are clicking on them? It’s amazing to me how many people are like, oh, I don’t know. I haven’t looked at it since I set it up.
[JENNIFER]
Yes. Again, I mean, more than just clicking. Like it is possible to be able to see, like, this is exactly what we have with Donna’s funnel, the case I was talking about earlier, we can see exactly which ad and which audience resulted in a sale. It’s like the difference between just like blindly spending money versus being able to see again, when I put this into this, I make this back. Then here’s the path to scale as much as you want, as quickly want. When I spend X I make Y. I know exactly what created that return. I’ll just put more into that up until the level of I don’t anymore.
[ALISON]
I think the other thing that I’ve observed, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts about this, but when I started my business, like six years ago, it was relatively easy for me to create my own Facebook Ad and now I feel like it’s just gotten so much more complicated.
[JENNIFER]
Yes, it has. It has gotten more complicated, which is like, I guess, good for us, but also like I mean, even for us, every time we open the Ads Manager, there’s a new feature. There’s a new warning. There’s something that’s changing. There’s been constant changes going on at Facebook over the last year and a half, two years. But I think that in addition to changes with the platform and the platform becoming more complicated, actually part of what is at play in that conversation of anybody used to be able to do this in 2016, and now they can’t actually goes back to that conversation we were having before about just increasingly crowded online marketplace, increasingly crowded online newsfeed.

You used, there just weren’t as many ads and as much competition in 2016, for example, where you could have like a decent ad, a decent landing page, a decent funnel and there just wasn’t a lot else out there versus now there’s 5 million other people that are running an ad that looks like yours and doing it better. It’s just, it’s playing at a higher level. So that’s where working with somebody who really understands the platform can provide true strategy, versus just following the steps to set up an ad that’s really needed more these days.
[ALISON]
Yes, I’m a big fan of that. I think that if you’re going to spend the money, you should hire somebody to help you do it the right way and to make sure you are getting a return on your investment because that’s what it’s all about. Cool. One thing I was hoping too, that we could talk about is just sort of again, because Facebook and Instagram, just the social media platforms, they change quite often. What are the current trends with the demographics of like who’s using Facebook and who’s using Instagram? What businesses do you think do better on one or the other, that type of thing?
[JENNIFER]
So I think something that’s important to note is that in the back end, they’re actually one and the same. It’s actually just one advertising platform for both Facebook and Instagram and it’s categorized, not as different platforms, but different placements. So sometimes they’re not as separate as we like may otherwise think, however, traditionally older demographic on Facebook, Facebook definitely skews a bit older, younger demographic on Instagram, especially in Instagram stories and Instagram Reels, which are also specific places in which you can have targeted ads.

I mean, I may be biased, but I do really believe that there are so, so, so few businesses that cannot find success on Facebook or Instagram. The reason is that at the end of the day, the sheer number of people on the planet that use those platforms, and we’re talking billions, like, what are the odds that your audience is not on there? That doesn’t mean that you aren’t going to have to get creative with how you pull them in and find them. But I mean, everybody is on there at the end of the day between Facebook or Instagram, unless you’re talking about like a super, super young demographic, like gen Z, we’re talking like really under, I would say under 18, under 21-ish, like the really younger audiences. They’re definitely not on Facebook. They’re sometimes on Instagram, but they prefer more like the TikToks and the Snapchats. But other than that, I mean, yes, everybody’s on Facebook and Instagram.
[ALISON]
So when you run an ad, I’m glad that you mentioned that about how Facebook and Instagram are owned by the same company, and there’s an option when you post to one place, you can also post at the same time on the other platform. So when you run ads, do you run the exact same ad on each channel or do you specifically make different ads because there might be different audiences?
[JENNIFER]
I really think it is case by case, and it depends on the client and what we know about their audience. We will always, definitely do completely custom ads for like a stories placement, because that is just obviously so different from something that would appear in the Facebook news feed. But yes, I mean, again, it’s another one of those things that we might ultimately test to see what’s working, but a lot of times, if we’re just thinking about the creative, just the image that we would use on Facebook versus Instagram, we will end up just using the same across both platforms. But again, always looking at the data and using the data to determine what else we do, what else we test, where we go from there.
[ALISON]
Nice. So I heard that you put together a little experiment and you forgot about it, and then it ended up being the driver for your first seven figure year. So can you tell us about that?
[JENNIFER]
Yes, I mean that, I think that’s so accurately described as the way that I do business, which is just like very unofficial and I just like have random ideas and like, see what happens. Then like oopsies, I made a million dollars. That’s, very, very on brand for me, but more or less this is actually right before everything hit with COVID. I had been growing my agency organically for, I guess we were at that point for about five years. I mean, like, that’s great, we’re growing organically. We’re growing through referrals, we’re growing through word of mouth, but it drove me crazy because I felt like I wasn’t in control of my own growth that we were talking about. I didn’t have data to be able to say, when I do this, I get a new client because it was so random.

I really was craving that control that ability to know the numbers and know how to grow my own terms. So the way, so in quotations that you do Facebook advertising, that you do marketing is you have to provide a lot of value upfront. You have to do the webinar, you have to do the video training, you have to get, create all of this free content. I found myself thinking about, well, what would be the right piece of content, the right introductory training that would bring in and target my perfect people, types of clients they want to work with? Where I landed was actually, I don’t know that there is one, I don’t think that the types of clients that we work with want to learn anything about Facebook Ads. They just want the right person to come and do it for them.

So actually it’s backwards to like try to pull in the people who want to learn when those are actually not my people. They don’t have time to watch the training to go through the guide. So my random idea, which was really unheard of at the time was to just run an ad to people who don’t know me directly to vocal sales call with me. I just said, okay, I’ll set it up for a couple hundred dollars a month and I’ll go back to my life and forget about it. It wasn’t until a month later that I noticed like, hey, this thing is starting to work. Again, in retrospect, I now understand that a lot of it was the messaging buckets.

Like that’s what allowed me to sort of like defy the odds in terms of what the rules are with Facebook Ads, because I was able to do again, this relationship building on steroids, in my ads and on my landing page, that I was able to have a person who did not know I existed five seconds ago, be willing to book a sales call with me and in a single 30 minute sales call close on a $20,000 or more project, again, not because of anything super fancy I’m doing with the ads but just because of the messaging and the way that all of that works. So to date, I don’t even know the exact number, I mean, to date, this final has definitely brought in over 1.5 million easily. I mean, I know just in December, 2021 alone, we spent $3,500 and made $138,000 back. So it’s got really, really incredible returns and longevity because it’s been running now for close to two years, which is actually crazy.
[ALISON]
Wow, that’s amazing. So it sounds like you just hit on that pain point of, they just want somebody who’s knowledgeable and reputable to take care of their social media ads for them. They don’t want to learn. They just, they’re busy business owners and they want to find somebody really good who will just do it for them.
[JENNIFER]
Exactly. Then again, incorporating the other messaging buckets of not only do I have the credibility and do we know what we’re doing and here’s all of our client results, but here’s like, what we stand for, here are our values. Here’s who we are. Here’s who I am. People show up to my sales calls all the time. They say things like, I feel like I already know you. So what an amazing experience to create on the autopilot, by the way? I’m not posting on social media every day. I’m not constantly creating new content. This is a system that is a little bit set and forget it, like once it was set up, it just works. It just runs.

It means that I never have to wonder how am I going to grow? How am I going to get to the next level? I have like the cheap codes. I have the clear path. I have two years’ worth of data that says, this is how much we need to spend on ads to get a sales call. This is how much we need to spend on ads to close a new client. And, oh, here’s my 2022 revenue goals. Great. I just need to spend this every month. Like, it’s not a guarantee, but it’s close to it because of all the historical data that we have.
[ALISON]
That’s amazing. Congratulations.
[JENNIFER]
Very exciting. Thank you so much.
[ALISON]
Yes. So I understand you have a giveaway for our audience.
[JENNIFER]
Yes, I do. So speaking of the messaging buckets what we have put together is a free guide that’s essentially 100 unique ad ideas to help make competition irrelevant. It’s broken down by credibility ad ideas, vulnerability ad ideas, personality ad ideas, and feel good ad ideas with some examples in there as well. So I’m going to make a like pretty custom link just for your listeners, Alison. So if anybody wants to go ahead and grab that guide, it’s going be theadgirls.com/gagp, so like G-A-G-P for Grow A Group Practice.
[ALISON]
Oh yes, nice. I want to download, I want to download that now.
[JENNIFER]
Just for you guys.
[ALISON]
Very cool. Awesome. So Jennifer, it’s been so great talking with you. If folks want to learn more about your marketing agency or about you, how can they get in touch with you?
[JENNIFER]
Our agency website is theadgirls.com and then I am Jenn with two Ns, Jenn Spivak on Facebook and Instagram, if anybody wants to connect.
[ALISON]
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer. I’ve learned some new things today, so I appreciate your time.
[JENNIFER]
Yay, I love to hear that. Thank you, Alison.
[ALISON]
Well, I wanted to say thank you to Therapy Notes for being a sponsor of this podcast. We know your EHR is awesome and we are happy to tell other people about it. So if you want to get Therapy Notes for free for three months, use promo code [JOE], J-O-E, no strings attached, and you can check it out and see if you’re ready to make the switch.

Thanks again for listening today. I hope you enjoyed that interview. I know I learned a few things from Jennifer about Facebook and Instagram Ads. It’s always something I get lots of questions about, so I hope this was helpful for you in figuring out how to do it for your own business or hiring somebody like Jennifer to help you do it. I will talk to you all next time.

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This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.